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Rebuilt 430 Runs Hot

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  • spujia
    replied
    I see, you were referring to the block thermostats in the second quote.

    Does anyone know what the correct thermostat opening temp is, and at what temperature the engine should operate? My 2004 Trailblazer runs just below the 210 degree mark.

    Leave a comment:


  • simplyconnected
    replied
    Look at any water pump. Coolant enters the middle and the vanes fling it outward. There is only one inlet (large hose from the bottom of the radiator) and two outlet ports (to the block holes). Yes, there is also a small inlet for the heater 'return' line, which goes to the inlet side.

    This Rock Auto picture shows the large inlet going to the middle of the pump, and the large-diameter vanes feeding the block ports. Rotation direction doesn't matter.

    This begs the question: Why would Ford put block thermostats in the INLET side of the block? Also note, this is the ONLY Ford Motor Co. engine with block thermostats.

    So coolant enters the front of the block, travels around the cylinders and up the heads through head gasket holes. From the heads, flow goes through the intake manifold and out the thermostat (in the front of the intake manifold). This is the hottest part of the coolant path; where the thermostat is, where the temperature gauge sender is, and where the heater core inlet hose is.

    So, coolant goes in the block and out the thermostat. Pretty standard on most all engines.

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  • spujia
    replied
    Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
    Your water pump inlet comes from the bottom of your radiator and the pump delivers coolant to the block holes. The intake manifold thermostat outputs hot water back to the radiator top.

    Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
    Why would anyone put a thermostat on the inlet side of a block? This is the coldest part of the coolant.
    Aren't these statements contradictory? Which way does the water go?

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  • simplyconnected
    replied
    Originally posted by spujia View Post
    ...There are no block thermostats installed (couldn't find them), and I think most of the water goes through those holes rather than through the radiator via the thermostat.
    Your water pump inlet comes from the bottom of your radiator and the pump delivers coolant to the block holes. The intake manifold thermostat outputs hot water back to the radiator top.

    Removing the thermostat should make the engine run unregulated-cool, all the time. Free flowing coolant can not cause your engine to overheat.

    I like the idea of using a real mechanical bulb thermostat. It should be mounted near the hottest part of your engine; close to your thermostat on the intake manifold. If a thermometer still indicates a hot engine, either the coolant isn't flowing correctly or heat isn't being exchanged through the radiator.

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  • spujia
    replied
    Hey guys,

    Here's an update:

    Yes I installed the diverters - I got them from a Lincoln parts site. I ran the car again, this time until the temp gauge stopped moving up. It passed the middle of the "P" and then settled back down to the "|" in the "P". Then the fuel pump got vapor locked, I believe, because the car just stopped running. This really made me scratch my head. If the car overheats, it should overheat all the way. I remember that the sender I got was for a Lincoln, not a Bird, so I thought maybe the resistance was different. I went an auto parts store (NAPA) and found out the part numbers are the same, so no help there. I'm gonna replace the temp sensor with a aftermarket system that has a gauge that tells the exact temp (anyone know what that should be?) If that doesn't work I'm going to remove the thermostat. There are no block thermostats installed (couldn't find them), and I think most of the water goes through those holes rather than through the radiator via the thermostat.

    PS - I live in California
    Last edited by spujia; December 21st, 2010, 09:46 PM. Reason: More info

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  • Howard Prout
    replied
    I contacted Lincoln Parts International and they directed me to this ad on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...e=STRK:MESE:IT

    Part of that ad includes the discussion shown in the attachment. The eBay ad also shows how the diverters are to be installed. Interestingly they say there is no way to know what size you need until you measure your block! It is also interesting to note the emphasis they put on the point that a MEL engine will overheat if these diverters are not installed. Another point of interest is that the price on their web page is $55 plus about $30 S&H while the price on eBay is $125 plus $12 S&H. A further check on the current price confirmed it to be $125 per pair plus $10 S&H to US or $20 S&H to Canada.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Howard Prout; December 12th, 2010, 06:53 AM. Reason: addition

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  • simplyconnected
    replied
    I wonder a couple things about the 430:


    Why would anyone put a thermostat on the inlet side of a block? This is the coldest part of the coolant.

    Why is the 430, Ford's only engine that has this setup? All Ford car engines have inlets in the front of the block, they all run coolant around the cylinders to the back and up the heads, and they all send hot coolant out the front of the intake manifold.

    Since water flow takes the path of least resistance, I would seriously look at the holes in the 430's head gaskets. They should be nearly closed off in the front, and open in the rear of the engine. (This sends coolant to the back cylinders.)

    Connecting rods squirt oil on the bottoms of your aluminum pistons (every stroke), pulling serious heat away. The oil is always hotter (~230*F) than coolant, but nothing cools the oil. Sludge forms when oil breaks down from heat. (You guys running hot engines need synthetic oil).

    So, two areas can be improved in the cooling system; correctly balanced block water flow, and the addition of a simple oil cooler.

    To find hot spots, engine temperatures can be accurately measured with a hand-held infrared temp sensor. - Dave

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  • Howard Prout
    replied
    Thanks for the info, Carl. My car was built in January of 1959 so the engine is probably of the earlier version. But as you suggest, I will measure the ports before ordering the diverters.

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  • partsetal
    replied
    The Lincoln Mercury Microfiche lists B8E 8526 & 7-A as being 1.631" OD for block bores of 1.620/1.625" diameter for the 1960-64 383/430. It also lists
    C4VY-8526 & 7-A as being 1.531" OD for block bores of 1.520/1.525" diameter for the same 1960-64 383/430.
    B8E 8526 & 7 is listed in the Lincoln Book for the 58-9 430 no dimensions given.
    C4VY 8526/7-B is listed for 1965-67 430/462 for 1.520/1.525" block openings, but it is available in both brass and steel (perhaps the B suffix is for the brass)
    My presumption then is that the earlier blocks had the larger bores and sometime in late 59 there was a change to the smaller bore. It is still best to measure!
    Carl

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  • Howard Prout
    replied
    Originally posted by 1960_430_AU View Post
    Two questions guys
    How much hotter does a 430 run without the diverters?
    Any way to tell what size is needed without pulling the water pump?

    Oh yeah one other thing
    What's snow???

    Richard
    I will be able to better answer you questions around August after I have had some experience with the engine running in hot weather.

    I am going to take the water pump off my engine to see if it has diverters - I am reasonably confident it does not. If not, I am going to install a pair of diverters. If it does, I'll have a look at them to see if they need replacing.

    My engine has run very hot for a long time - I think I first noticed it after I did some work on it in the early 1980s. I had a lot of parts chrome plated at that time. When I noticed the engine running hot, I concluded that it was due to the chromed parts. On hot days, such as when the temperature is above 90F and the air is humid, the engine temperature gauge can go up to the top, especially if I am in stop and go traffic. If so, I have to pull over and let it cool down. Another scenario is after driving for some distance, I park the car for a few minutes and then try to drive it again. At times you can hear the coolant boiling in the reservoir. Sometimes I also get a fuel pump vapour lock. All this happens even though I have a triple core radiator, a six blade fan and a fan shroud! Assuming my engine does not have diverters, will putting them in make a difference? I don't know - stayed tuned to find out.

    Is there any way of knowing what size of diverters to use without pulling the water pump? Not that I know of as yet. Maybe it depends on when the engine was built. MEL engines were used in Lincolns into the mid 1960s. From what I have read, Ford stopped installing the block thermostats in MEL engines at some point - maybe they went to larger ports at the same time. Most of the web sites listing diverters advise measuring the size of the ports before ordering diverters. Maybe the size of diverters used depended on the block casting and some were fitted with 1 1/2" diverters and others with 1 5/8" diverters. Who knows?
    Last edited by Howard Prout; December 11th, 2010, 09:55 AM. Reason: spelling

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  • simplyconnected
    replied
    I'm movin' to Australia.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Two questions guys
    How much hotter does a 430 run without the diverters?
    Any way to tell what size is needed without pulling the water pump?

    Oh yeah one other thing
    What's snow???

    Richard

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Prout
    replied
    I've been having an interesting conversation with Carl (partsetal). He mentioned the importance of the water diverters in keeping an engine running cool. I had never heard of them. Apparently the original ones were made of steel and tended to rust out and vanish. Carl said the newer ones are made of brass. I don't think my engine ever had them since I've had it. They are parts nos. B8E-8526-A amd B8E-8527-E. The only source I have found for them so far is Lincoln Land (lincolnlandinc.com) in Florida. They show two sizes. 1 1/2" and 1 5/8" at $115/pair. I now have to figure out which size I need for my engine.

    Update: Lincoln Parts International (lincolnpartsinterntional.com) also lists the diverters in 1 1/2" and 1 5/8" but at $55 per pair. I don't know if they are brass or aluminum, probably aluminum. Classique Cars Unlimited (classiquecars.com) lists brass diverters for $148.50 per pair and Baker's Auto lists them for $110 per pair. Some of these sites recommend measuring the holes in the block before ordering diverters. What I haven't been able to determine is what the rationale is for the different sizes. It may be that the port size for earlier runs was 1 1/2" and later runs 1 5/8" or vice versa. Who knows? I think I will take the water pump off my engine,measure the ports and order the appropriate diverters. Once i have mesured the ports I will post what size they are.

    I'd also like to get a pair of block thermostats but can't find a source for them. Carl says they occaisionally come up on eBay so I'll have to watch for them.

    BTW, the tractor is sitting in the garage ready to go whenever it snows. It can sit there all winter and not get any work as far as I am concerned. I had it out a few days ago to clear a skiff of snow. I was a bit like using an elephant gun to kill a fly.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Howard Prout; December 11th, 2010, 06:43 AM. Reason: update

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  • simplyconnected
    replied
    Originally posted by tbird430 View Post
    ...They really are only needed for heaters in the colder climate areas...
    Jon, you guys from Texas slay me. LOL

    I have only one question for you:
    How big is your snow blower?

    Here's Howard, clearing his driveway at home, because snow doesn't go away on its own, for months. Sometimes, we run out of places to put it:



    Notice those orange stakes in the background (at the left)? Notice how TALL they are? They tell Howard where his driveway STARTS.

    Howard's 430 could really use block thermostats.- Dave

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  • tbird430
    replied
    Every once in a blue moon NOS ones pop up on Ebay.

    They really are only needed for heaters in the colder climate areas. That is why Ford stopped using them in the later Lincoln models...

    -Jon in TX.

    Leave a comment:

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