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Rebuilt 430 Runs Hot

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  • #31
    hot 430

    start the engine, leave the radiator cap off. put your hand on the top radiator hose as the engine warms up. you will feel the hose warm as the thermostat opens. First thing i do with a heating problem is fill the radiator with water, then pull off the lower hose quickly. the water should gush out as fast as the outlet will allow. If not, the radiator is restricted. Go buy a $150.00 aluminum racing radiator, easy to mount. Regardless of what anyone tells you about even warm-up and all that,, take those junk thermostats out of the block where the water pump mounts to the block. The mercury dealer in town here took them out if my dad's 1958 383 Merc when it was 2 years old. did not need them then, do no need them now!!
    If you had the heads off the engine, it is possible the head gaskets were installed with the water passage hole to the front?? Just use basic trouble shooting, take the good hints the other guys on this site gave you, keep at it, nothing that time and money can't fixx!!!!!!!!!!

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    • #32
      The jury is in!

      I opted to replace the 195 deg thermostat with a 160 deg. 180 deg is OEM.

      I also installed the aftermarket temp gauge. As I watched, the motor warmed up to 160 and stayed there... A little climbing here and there but right back down with some RPM.

      I guess the verdict is that the "P" sits at about 195 deg (where the old thermostat opened), which makes sense if it tops out at 220 or so.


      Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
      Steve, why not try a 180* or a 160* thermostat? They're only a two bucks and commonly available. I believe Thunderbirds came from the factory with 180* 'stats. That would explain why your gauge reads 'hot'.
      All in all, this was simply a matter of the 195 thermostat - 100 points for simplyconnected - nailed it on the head!

      Thanks again for the great info and help, some of which kept me up at night thinking about gaskets backwards and all - scary stuff.
      Last edited by spujia; December 27th, 2010, 02:36 AM. Reason: spelling
      Steve

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      • #33
        Originally posted by 63-4drpost View Post
        . Regardless of what anyone tells you about even warm-up and all that,, take those junk thermostats out of the block where the water pump mounts to the block. The mercury dealer in town here took them out if my dad's 1958 383 Merc when it was 2 years old. did not need them then, do no need them now!!!!!!!
        Your motor probably won't thank you for that - especially if a lot of you driving is trips of five miles or less, the motor will be running too cool too often.

        You oil gets contaminated and your piston/ring/bore life will be lasting a lot less time than it could.

        And fuel consumption will be up - (if you worry about that sort of thing)
        A Thunderbirder from the Land of the Long White Cloud.

        Comment


        • #34
          racing radiator

          i use a cheap racing aluminum radiator, 4 blade fan, no shroud. No thermostat at all(anywhere) , NEVER EVEN GETS WARM!! I used ti have an engine rebuilding shop in the 80's, almost always replaced the radiator with a new engine. You guys are making this very difficult for the guy!

          Comment


          • #35
            Steve, I am very glad your problems are put to bed. I didn't mean to scare you about gaskets installed backwards, but... you know... many of these cars were in the hands of novice mechanics, still learning the trade. In fact, 'inexperience' is our biggest fear. When something goes wrong and it isn't fixed properly, the first thing that happens is, an owner will sell his problems to an unsuspecting buyer who may not experience ill effects for months.

            From my perspective, I must assume nothing and suggest 'most likely solutions'. These cars ran just fine when they were new and they've lasted 50+ years. This is by design, not mistake. They should run just as well when properly maintained.

            63-4drpost and Scumdog, you guys are a riot.
            I've never seen a "cheap" aluminum radiator. They usually run $400 around Detroit (plastic ones are cheap at $125).

            And Tom, we're talking about San Diego, California, where they enjoy the finest weather in the entire USA (I wish I could give them a foot of my snow right now). In the city (like around here) everything is within two miles of my house. The wife's Escape never goes far enough to heat the passengers. That's why I got her 'remote start' for Christmas this year. Does it shorten engine life? Oh, well...

            I don't think her oxygen sensors ever kick in during any of our Michigan winter months. I know her radiator fan doesn't go on.

            Steve's concern was, 'overheating', which will kill an engine. Given the choice, I'd rather run my engine too cold than too hot. But hey, a good thermostat should keep that under control all the time.
            My latest project:
            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
            --Lee Iacocca

            From: Royal Oak, Michigan

            Comment


            • #36
              I took the water pump off Old Betsy this morning and lo and behold the water diverters are there. I had hoped they were not and that was the cause of my overheating problem but now I have ruled that out. I had forgotten that I had to loosen off the AC compressor bracket to get at the lower left water pump bolt. But those bolts were easy to get to at. Just a nuisance having to do so.

              So now I have to look for other factors that could be causing the overheating. My vehicle did not have AC originally - I added it. According to the MPC the water pump impellers for AC are slightly deeper than non AC impellers (1.00" vs. 0.90"). Is this enough of a difference to cause overheating? BTW, my vehicle only overheats on hot humid days in heavy traffic. I am using a five-blade fan, would a six bladed fan make much of a difference?
              sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Howard Prout View Post
                I took the water pump off Old Betsy this morning and lo and behold the water diverters are there. I had hoped they were not and that was the cause of my overheating problem but now I have ruled that out. I had forgotten that I had to loosen off the AC compressor bracket to get at the lower left water pump bolt. But those bolts were easy to get to at. Just a nuisance having to do so.

                So now I have to look for other factors that could be causing the overheating. My vehicle did not have AC originally - I added it. According to the MPC the water pump impellers for AC are slightly deeper than non AC impellers (1.00" vs. 0.90"). Is this enough of a difference to cause overheating? BTW, my vehicle only overheats on hot humid days in heavy traffic. I am using a five-blade fan, would a six bladed fan make much of a difference?
                I thought you already said earlier in this thread you had a six blade fan?

                "...I have a triple core radiator, a six blade fan and a fan shroud!"

                What is your base timing set at? Have you checked to make sure #1 piston at TDC gives you 0 degrees on your harmonic balancer? Does you vaccum advance on the distributer work?

                -Jon in TX.
                sigpic
                The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

                VTCI Member#6287.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Howard, you're right to look at it as a whole system. Water needs to flow freely, and air must exchange heat easily.

                  I've seen three-core radiators block so much air... a two-core flowing freely beats a blocked three-core. I'm not disrespecting the three-core, but there is a reason they don't do four-core. See my point? And if your coolant isn't flowing inside the cores, air flow is meaningless. If I carry a radiator into my engine build shop, they flow check it for free. I gotta believe your area offers the same service.

                  After your radiator checks out, it's easy to flow check your engine. I would do it without a thermostat, first.

                  Harbor Freight sells infrared thermometers for about US$40. Just point and shoot from a distance, and it will display surface temperature. Check this out.

                  Which preset thermostat are you using? If your engine speed is always at idle, consider using an undersized pulley. It will increase the pump speed and water flow. - Dave
                  My latest project:
                  CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                  "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                  --Lee Iacocca

                  From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post

                    63-4drpost and Scumdog, you guys are a riot.
                    I've never seen a "cheap" aluminum radiator. They usually run $400 around Detroit (plastic ones are cheap at $125).

                    And Tom, we're talking about San Diego, California, where they enjoy the finest weather in the entire USA (I wish I could give them a foot of my snow right now). In the city (like around here) everything is within two miles of my house. The wife's Escape never goes far enough to heat the passengers. That's why I got her 'remote start' for Christmas this year. Does it shorten engine life? Oh, well...


                    Steve's concern was, 'overheating', which will kill an engine. Given the choice, I'd rather run my engine too cold than too hot. But hey, a good thermostat should keep that under control all the time.


                    My final comment on this is: if no thermostat is needed why would car-makers ever bother to put them into just about every motor made for the last 60+ years ????
                    A Thunderbirder from the Land of the Long White Cloud.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by tbird430 View Post
                      I thought you already said earlier in this thread you had a six blade fan?

                      "...I have a triple core radiator, a six blade fan and a fan shroud!"

                      What is your base timing set at? Have you checked to make sure #1 piston at TDC gives you 0 degrees on your harmonic balancer? Does you vaccum advance on the distributer work?

                      -Jon in TX.
                      It seems I can't count consistently - I guess old age is taking its toll. I don't know why I thought I had a six blade fan - I don't. The original one was four blade. When I installed the AC, I went to a five blade fan. I have thought about a six blade fan before but never got around to buying one.

                      Jon, to answer your other questions, the timing is set at about 6 deg BTDC - any more and it will ping. The harmonic balancer and crank are in synch and the vacuum advance works as it should. And to answer Dave's queations, the rad is free flowing and the block is clean.

                      I wish I had used an infra-red gun to check the temperature gradient across the rad, as has been suggested a few times, before I took the system apart but it's too late for that on this go-round.

                      The engine only overheats on hot humid days at low speeds - never a problem on the open road. On thinking back to when the problem first arose, I think it may have been after I installed the AC system. Although the condenser is clear of any debris, I now think that not enough air is getting through a low speed. So how can I increase air flow at low speed?

                      One option I am thinking of trying something like a Flex-a-Lite 1818 seven blade fan, but at 2 3/8" deep, I'm not sure it will fit. Another option is using a thermostatically controlled auxillary electric fan. Or both. There isn't much room between the AC condenser and the grille so I don't know if it is possible to get one in there. Has anybody installed an electric auxillary fan on a 430 with AC? If so, what did you use?

                      PS - it does seem rather odd to be discussing an overheating problem when the temperature outside is below freezing and it is snowing!
                      Last edited by Howard Prout; January 6th, 2011, 08:23 PM. Reason: additions
                      sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by scumdog View Post
                        ... if no thermostat is needed why would car-makers ever bother to put them into just about every motor made for the last 60+ years ????
                        If you live in Michigan, you would need one real badly. Remote Start installations are backed up three weeks, here. Without a thermostat, our engines would take forever to produce enough heat to deice the windshield, and the driver would be eternally cold. It's -6.6*C right now. Ask Jed how cold it gets by his place in Minnesota.

                        Years ago, we got a complaint (from old folks) that full-sized Ford Crown Victoria's and Mercury Marquis's weren't getting hot fast enough. So, Ford ran the heater core inlet hose off the rear of the RH head on our 5.0L engines. That got warm water to the heater sooner, but the coolant never reached thermostat temp. That scheme didn't last long. On average, our cars take about 2.5 miles to come up to heat. - Dave
                        My latest project:
                        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                        --Lee Iacocca

                        From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
                          ...If your engine speed is always at idle, consider using an undersized pulley. It will increase the pump speed and water flow.
                          It will also make your fan rotate faster.
                          My latest project:
                          CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                          "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                          --Lee Iacocca

                          From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            old man with a BIG mouth

                            OMG I remind myself of Jackie Gleason in the Honeymooners,, "I got a BIIG mouth!
                            sorry for the stupid way i say things in my posts, just my off-beat form of humor. My wife seldom laughs at it anymore(my humor).Henry

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Howard Prout View Post
                              One option I am thinking of trying something like a Flex-a-Lite 1818 seven blade fan, but at 2 3/8" deep, I'm not sure it will fit.
                              I installed a Flex-a-Lite 1818 fan yesterday. The only problem was that it is deeper than the original fan and had to be set out from the engine about an extra 1/4". I used two washers for spacers. The first was a one inch diameter washer that went between the AC pulley and the original spacer. This washer had to have holes drilled to accomodate the fan bolts. The second washer was 5/8" and went between the original spacer and the new fan. This washer had to have notches made to accomodate the fan bolts. There is enough room between the fan and the rad and it fits well within the fan shroud. I also had to get four new 5/16" x 3" bolts to accomodate the extra depth. So now I'll have to wait six months until we get some 100 deg. F. weather to see if this provides enough cooling.
                              Last edited by Howard Prout; January 12th, 2011, 05:09 AM.
                              sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                In addition to installing a new flex fan, I also had the top half of the fan shroud chrome plated. I also made a cover for the top of the radiator and had it chrome plated as well. If you look closely at the pictures, you can see the filler piece between the nose and the rad, then the rad cover and the the fan shroud.

                                BTW, something I hadn't noticed when installing the new fan is how close it comes to hitting the expansion tank - as can be seen in the first picture. I knew from rotating the fan by hand after it was installed that it didn't hit anything but I didn't look at the clearance with the expansion tank. However it is a flex fan so as the engine speed increases the distance between the fan blades and the expansion tank will increase.
                                Attached Files
                                sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

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