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Rebuilt 430 Runs Hot

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  • scumdog
    replied
    Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post

    63-4drpost and Scumdog, you guys are a riot.
    I've never seen a "cheap" aluminum radiator. They usually run $400 around Detroit (plastic ones are cheap at $125).

    And Tom, we're talking about San Diego, California, where they enjoy the finest weather in the entire USA (I wish I could give them a foot of my snow right now). In the city (like around here) everything is within two miles of my house. The wife's Escape never goes far enough to heat the passengers. That's why I got her 'remote start' for Christmas this year. Does it shorten engine life? Oh, well...


    Steve's concern was, 'overheating', which will kill an engine. Given the choice, I'd rather run my engine too cold than too hot. But hey, a good thermostat should keep that under control all the time.


    My final comment on this is: if no thermostat is needed why would car-makers ever bother to put them into just about every motor made for the last 60+ years ????

    Leave a comment:


  • simplyconnected
    replied
    Howard, you're right to look at it as a whole system. Water needs to flow freely, and air must exchange heat easily.

    I've seen three-core radiators block so much air... a two-core flowing freely beats a blocked three-core. I'm not disrespecting the three-core, but there is a reason they don't do four-core. See my point? And if your coolant isn't flowing inside the cores, air flow is meaningless. If I carry a radiator into my engine build shop, they flow check it for free. I gotta believe your area offers the same service.

    After your radiator checks out, it's easy to flow check your engine. I would do it without a thermostat, first.

    Harbor Freight sells infrared thermometers for about US$40. Just point and shoot from a distance, and it will display surface temperature. Check this out.

    Which preset thermostat are you using? If your engine speed is always at idle, consider using an undersized pulley. It will increase the pump speed and water flow. - Dave

    Leave a comment:


  • tbird430
    replied
    Originally posted by Howard Prout View Post
    I took the water pump off Old Betsy this morning and lo and behold the water diverters are there. I had hoped they were not and that was the cause of my overheating problem but now I have ruled that out. I had forgotten that I had to loosen off the AC compressor bracket to get at the lower left water pump bolt. But those bolts were easy to get to at. Just a nuisance having to do so.

    So now I have to look for other factors that could be causing the overheating. My vehicle did not have AC originally - I added it. According to the MPC the water pump impellers for AC are slightly deeper than non AC impellers (1.00" vs. 0.90"). Is this enough of a difference to cause overheating? BTW, my vehicle only overheats on hot humid days in heavy traffic. I am using a five-blade fan, would a six bladed fan make much of a difference?
    I thought you already said earlier in this thread you had a six blade fan?

    "...I have a triple core radiator, a six blade fan and a fan shroud!"

    What is your base timing set at? Have you checked to make sure #1 piston at TDC gives you 0 degrees on your harmonic balancer? Does you vaccum advance on the distributer work?

    -Jon in TX.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howard Prout
    replied
    I took the water pump off Old Betsy this morning and lo and behold the water diverters are there. I had hoped they were not and that was the cause of my overheating problem but now I have ruled that out. I had forgotten that I had to loosen off the AC compressor bracket to get at the lower left water pump bolt. But those bolts were easy to get to at. Just a nuisance having to do so.

    So now I have to look for other factors that could be causing the overheating. My vehicle did not have AC originally - I added it. According to the MPC the water pump impellers for AC are slightly deeper than non AC impellers (1.00" vs. 0.90"). Is this enough of a difference to cause overheating? BTW, my vehicle only overheats on hot humid days in heavy traffic. I am using a five-blade fan, would a six bladed fan make much of a difference?

    Leave a comment:


  • simplyconnected
    replied
    Steve, I am very glad your problems are put to bed. I didn't mean to scare you about gaskets installed backwards, but... you know... many of these cars were in the hands of novice mechanics, still learning the trade. In fact, 'inexperience' is our biggest fear. When something goes wrong and it isn't fixed properly, the first thing that happens is, an owner will sell his problems to an unsuspecting buyer who may not experience ill effects for months.

    From my perspective, I must assume nothing and suggest 'most likely solutions'. These cars ran just fine when they were new and they've lasted 50+ years. This is by design, not mistake. They should run just as well when properly maintained.

    63-4drpost and Scumdog, you guys are a riot.
    I've never seen a "cheap" aluminum radiator. They usually run $400 around Detroit (plastic ones are cheap at $125).

    And Tom, we're talking about San Diego, California, where they enjoy the finest weather in the entire USA (I wish I could give them a foot of my snow right now). In the city (like around here) everything is within two miles of my house. The wife's Escape never goes far enough to heat the passengers. That's why I got her 'remote start' for Christmas this year. Does it shorten engine life? Oh, well...

    I don't think her oxygen sensors ever kick in during any of our Michigan winter months. I know her radiator fan doesn't go on.

    Steve's concern was, 'overheating', which will kill an engine. Given the choice, I'd rather run my engine too cold than too hot. But hey, a good thermostat should keep that under control all the time.

    Leave a comment:


  • 63-4drpost
    replied
    racing radiator

    i use a cheap racing aluminum radiator, 4 blade fan, no shroud. No thermostat at all(anywhere) , NEVER EVEN GETS WARM!! I used ti have an engine rebuilding shop in the 80's, almost always replaced the radiator with a new engine. You guys are making this very difficult for the guy!

    Leave a comment:


  • scumdog
    replied
    Originally posted by 63-4drpost View Post
    . Regardless of what anyone tells you about even warm-up and all that,, take those junk thermostats out of the block where the water pump mounts to the block. The mercury dealer in town here took them out if my dad's 1958 383 Merc when it was 2 years old. did not need them then, do no need them now!!!!!!!
    Your motor probably won't thank you for that - especially if a lot of you driving is trips of five miles or less, the motor will be running too cool too often.

    You oil gets contaminated and your piston/ring/bore life will be lasting a lot less time than it could.

    And fuel consumption will be up - (if you worry about that sort of thing)

    Leave a comment:


  • spujia
    replied
    The jury is in!

    I opted to replace the 195 deg thermostat with a 160 deg. 180 deg is OEM.

    I also installed the aftermarket temp gauge. As I watched, the motor warmed up to 160 and stayed there... A little climbing here and there but right back down with some RPM.

    I guess the verdict is that the "P" sits at about 195 deg (where the old thermostat opened), which makes sense if it tops out at 220 or so.


    Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
    Steve, why not try a 180* or a 160* thermostat? They're only a two bucks and commonly available. I believe Thunderbirds came from the factory with 180* 'stats. That would explain why your gauge reads 'hot'.
    All in all, this was simply a matter of the 195 thermostat - 100 points for simplyconnected - nailed it on the head!

    Thanks again for the great info and help, some of which kept me up at night thinking about gaskets backwards and all - scary stuff.
    Last edited by spujia; December 27th, 2010, 02:36 AM. Reason: spelling

    Leave a comment:


  • 63-4drpost
    replied
    hot 430

    start the engine, leave the radiator cap off. put your hand on the top radiator hose as the engine warms up. you will feel the hose warm as the thermostat opens. First thing i do with a heating problem is fill the radiator with water, then pull off the lower hose quickly. the water should gush out as fast as the outlet will allow. If not, the radiator is restricted. Go buy a $150.00 aluminum racing radiator, easy to mount. Regardless of what anyone tells you about even warm-up and all that,, take those junk thermostats out of the block where the water pump mounts to the block. The mercury dealer in town here took them out if my dad's 1958 383 Merc when it was 2 years old. did not need them then, do no need them now!!
    If you had the heads off the engine, it is possible the head gaskets were installed with the water passage hole to the front?? Just use basic trouble shooting, take the good hints the other guys on this site gave you, keep at it, nothing that time and money can't fixx!!!!!!!!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • JohnG
    replied
    I would reaffirm getting a better way to determine temperature than a 50 year old gauge that has no calibration on it. That information is almost meaningless; sticking your finger in is an improvement!

    Various things to consider:

    * an infrared temp gun. Harbor Freight. Good for everything from your car to your steak to your infected knee. In this case you can gather data from all over your motor in minutes.

    Part of what you are on the hunt for are "gradients" or substantial changes in temperature that you can't account for. These might indicate restrictions to coolant flow or air flow.

    * a digital thermometer. Calibrate your temp gauge by putting the sending unit in boiling water and then jotting down the temperature as it cools, especially at every letter on your gauge (P-M-E-T) as it drops.

    * overhaul where the sending unit grounds on your motor. Corrosion can make for added resistance, which is what the sending unit is based on. If need be, make up a jumper to a better ground. Not much amperage flowing here, so good connections are a must!

    * is your ignition timing pretty close to stock?? All other things equal, an engine with advanced timing will run hotter. Along the same lines, are the plugs the same heat range as stock?

    Just my opinions - has nothing to do with 430s per se, just motors and getting good information.

    John
    Last edited by JohnG; December 26th, 2010, 09:34 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • partsetal
    replied
    For any trouble shooting of cooling problems, I've found that the infrared no contact thermometer provides valuable information without testing sensors, guages, hoses, etc. By aiming it's laser pointer at various locations in the engine compartment it will immediately show blockages, and help identify the temperature when your needle is at M or P.
    This tool is also invaluable for checking brake temperatures and cylinder exhaust temperatures.
    For me this little tool has proven a valuable addition to my diagnostic techniques. They are readily available at Sears, Harbor Freight, Amazon, eBay and many other tool outlets. The best quality ones seem to be in the 50-75 range, but well worth it.
    Carl

    Leave a comment:


  • scumdog
    replied
    Originally posted by spujia View Post
    Nice wine rack.


    1. The temp sensor or gauge is wrong

    I'm still not sure what the thermostat opening temp should be - anyone know this number, and what temp the motor should run at?

    I'm going to install the aftermarket temp gauge and am still debating removing the thermostat, pending knowing what the right opening temp number is...

    Steve
    Or..maybe the thermostat has been put in backwards?

    It has been known to happen,- of course not seeing your block I cannot say if it's possible in your case.

    Leave a comment:


  • simplyconnected
    replied
    Originally posted by scumdog View Post
    Hmm, I'm sitting here looking at my 'wine rack' which also happens to be a 351C block - and it appears to have the thermostat situated in the block...
    Ummmm... well... 351C engines utilize a dry intake manifold, which is why the top radiator hose routes across then downward (through the water outlet) to the engine block. Since this engine has no water in the intake manifold, it must come out the block. Regardless, when that thermostat opens, hot water comes OUT to the radiator. 430 is still the only engine I know where Ford put thermostats on the inlet side of the block.

    Steve, why not try a 180* or a 160* thermostat? They're only a two bucks and commonly available. I believe Thunderbirds came from the factory with 180* 'stats. That would explain why your gauge reads 'hot'.

    Leave a comment:


  • spujia
    replied
    Nice wine rack.

    WELL, LETS SEE NOW...

    I let the car run until the temp got midway into the "M" in "TEMP". Then I shut her down and let her cool for 10 min. I turned the key to the "On" position and the temp gauge still read on the "M". I then was able to easily remove the cap from the reservoir. I put my finger in the tank and the water was luke-warm. However, if I put my hand on the intake manifold by the sensor, the motor was hot and I had to take my hand away. From this I deduce:

    1. No way I should be able to remove the cap with no pressure with the temp in the "M"
    2. The thermostat had not opened even when the temp was in the "M"

    I took the tank off and took a look at the thermostat. Its rated for 195 deg. I emptied the radiator and the water was first room-temp, then hot as the block emptied. Since the thermostat is new, from this I deduce:

    1. The temp sensor or gauge is wrong

    I'm still not sure what the thermostat opening temp should be - anyone know this number, and what temp the motor should run at?

    I'm going to install the aftermarket temp gauge and am still debating removing the thermostat, pending knowing what the right opening temp number is...

    Steve
    Last edited by spujia; December 23rd, 2010, 12:15 AM. Reason: Clarity

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  • scumdog
    replied
    Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post

    This begs the question: Why would Ford put block thermostats in the INLET side of the block? Also note, this is the ONLY Ford Motor Co. engine with block thermostats..
    Hmm, I'm sitting here looking at my 'wine rack' which also happens to be a 351C block - and it appears to have the thermostat situated in the block...

    Leave a comment:

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