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Rebuilt 430 Runs Hot

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  • #16
    The Lincoln Mercury Microfiche lists B8E 8526 & 7-A as being 1.631" OD for block bores of 1.620/1.625" diameter for the 1960-64 383/430. It also lists
    C4VY-8526 & 7-A as being 1.531" OD for block bores of 1.520/1.525" diameter for the same 1960-64 383/430.
    B8E 8526 & 7 is listed in the Lincoln Book for the 58-9 430 no dimensions given.
    C4VY 8526/7-B is listed for 1965-67 430/462 for 1.520/1.525" block openings, but it is available in both brass and steel (perhaps the B suffix is for the brass)
    My presumption then is that the earlier blocks had the larger bores and sometime in late 59 there was a change to the smaller bore. It is still best to measure!
    Carl

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    • #17
      Thanks for the info, Carl. My car was built in January of 1959 so the engine is probably of the earlier version. But as you suggest, I will measure the ports before ordering the diverters.
      sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

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      • #18
        I wonder a couple things about the 430:


        Why would anyone put a thermostat on the inlet side of a block? This is the coldest part of the coolant.

        Why is the 430, Ford's only engine that has this setup? All Ford car engines have inlets in the front of the block, they all run coolant around the cylinders to the back and up the heads, and they all send hot coolant out the front of the intake manifold.

        Since water flow takes the path of least resistance, I would seriously look at the holes in the 430's head gaskets. They should be nearly closed off in the front, and open in the rear of the engine. (This sends coolant to the back cylinders.)

        Connecting rods squirt oil on the bottoms of your aluminum pistons (every stroke), pulling serious heat away. The oil is always hotter (~230*F) than coolant, but nothing cools the oil. Sludge forms when oil breaks down from heat. (You guys running hot engines need synthetic oil).

        So, two areas can be improved in the cooling system; correctly balanced block water flow, and the addition of a simple oil cooler.

        To find hot spots, engine temperatures can be accurately measured with a hand-held infrared temp sensor. - Dave
        My latest project:
        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
        --Lee Iacocca

        From: Royal Oak, Michigan

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        • #19
          I contacted Lincoln Parts International and they directed me to this ad on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...e=STRK:MESE:IT

          Part of that ad includes the discussion shown in the attachment. The eBay ad also shows how the diverters are to be installed. Interestingly they say there is no way to know what size you need until you measure your block! It is also interesting to note the emphasis they put on the point that a MEL engine will overheat if these diverters are not installed. Another point of interest is that the price on their web page is $55 plus about $30 S&H while the price on eBay is $125 plus $12 S&H. A further check on the current price confirmed it to be $125 per pair plus $10 S&H to US or $20 S&H to Canada.
          Attached Files
          Last edited by Howard Prout; December 12th, 2010, 06:53 AM. Reason: addition
          sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

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          • #20
            Hey guys,

            Here's an update:

            Yes I installed the diverters - I got them from a Lincoln parts site. I ran the car again, this time until the temp gauge stopped moving up. It passed the middle of the "P" and then settled back down to the "|" in the "P". Then the fuel pump got vapor locked, I believe, because the car just stopped running. This really made me scratch my head. If the car overheats, it should overheat all the way. I remember that the sender I got was for a Lincoln, not a Bird, so I thought maybe the resistance was different. I went an auto parts store (NAPA) and found out the part numbers are the same, so no help there. I'm gonna replace the temp sensor with a aftermarket system that has a gauge that tells the exact temp (anyone know what that should be?) If that doesn't work I'm going to remove the thermostat. There are no block thermostats installed (couldn't find them), and I think most of the water goes through those holes rather than through the radiator via the thermostat.

            PS - I live in California
            Last edited by spujia; December 21st, 2010, 09:46 PM. Reason: More info
            Steve

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            • #21
              Originally posted by spujia View Post
              ...There are no block thermostats installed (couldn't find them), and I think most of the water goes through those holes rather than through the radiator via the thermostat.
              Your water pump inlet comes from the bottom of your radiator and the pump delivers coolant to the block holes. The intake manifold thermostat outputs hot water back to the radiator top.

              Removing the thermostat should make the engine run unregulated-cool, all the time. Free flowing coolant can not cause your engine to overheat.

              I like the idea of using a real mechanical bulb thermostat. It should be mounted near the hottest part of your engine; close to your thermostat on the intake manifold. If a thermometer still indicates a hot engine, either the coolant isn't flowing correctly or heat isn't being exchanged through the radiator.
              My latest project:
              CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

              "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
              --Lee Iacocca

              From: Royal Oak, Michigan

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
                Your water pump inlet comes from the bottom of your radiator and the pump delivers coolant to the block holes. The intake manifold thermostat outputs hot water back to the radiator top.

                Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
                Why would anyone put a thermostat on the inlet side of a block? This is the coldest part of the coolant.
                Aren't these statements contradictory? Which way does the water go?
                Steve

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                • #23
                  Look at any water pump. Coolant enters the middle and the vanes fling it outward. There is only one inlet (large hose from the bottom of the radiator) and two outlet ports (to the block holes). Yes, there is also a small inlet for the heater 'return' line, which goes to the inlet side.

                  This Rock Auto picture shows the large inlet going to the middle of the pump, and the large-diameter vanes feeding the block ports. Rotation direction doesn't matter.

                  This begs the question: Why would Ford put block thermostats in the INLET side of the block? Also note, this is the ONLY Ford Motor Co. engine with block thermostats.

                  So coolant enters the front of the block, travels around the cylinders and up the heads through head gasket holes. From the heads, flow goes through the intake manifold and out the thermostat (in the front of the intake manifold). This is the hottest part of the coolant path; where the thermostat is, where the temperature gauge sender is, and where the heater core inlet hose is.

                  So, coolant goes in the block and out the thermostat. Pretty standard on most all engines.
                  My latest project:
                  CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                  "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                  --Lee Iacocca

                  From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I see, you were referring to the block thermostats in the second quote.

                    Does anyone know what the correct thermostat opening temp is, and at what temperature the engine should operate? My 2004 Trailblazer runs just below the 210 degree mark.
                    Steve

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post

                      This begs the question: Why would Ford put block thermostats in the INLET side of the block? Also note, this is the ONLY Ford Motor Co. engine with block thermostats..
                      Hmm, I'm sitting here looking at my 'wine rack' which also happens to be a 351C block - and it appears to have the thermostat situated in the block...
                      A Thunderbirder from the Land of the Long White Cloud.

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                      • #26
                        Nice wine rack.

                        WELL, LETS SEE NOW...

                        I let the car run until the temp got midway into the "M" in "TEMP". Then I shut her down and let her cool for 10 min. I turned the key to the "On" position and the temp gauge still read on the "M". I then was able to easily remove the cap from the reservoir. I put my finger in the tank and the water was luke-warm. However, if I put my hand on the intake manifold by the sensor, the motor was hot and I had to take my hand away. From this I deduce:

                        1. No way I should be able to remove the cap with no pressure with the temp in the "M"
                        2. The thermostat had not opened even when the temp was in the "M"

                        I took the tank off and took a look at the thermostat. Its rated for 195 deg. I emptied the radiator and the water was first room-temp, then hot as the block emptied. Since the thermostat is new, from this I deduce:

                        1. The temp sensor or gauge is wrong

                        I'm still not sure what the thermostat opening temp should be - anyone know this number, and what temp the motor should run at?

                        I'm going to install the aftermarket temp gauge and am still debating removing the thermostat, pending knowing what the right opening temp number is...

                        Steve
                        Last edited by spujia; December 23rd, 2010, 12:15 AM. Reason: Clarity
                        Steve

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by scumdog View Post
                          Hmm, I'm sitting here looking at my 'wine rack' which also happens to be a 351C block - and it appears to have the thermostat situated in the block...
                          Ummmm... well... 351C engines utilize a dry intake manifold, which is why the top radiator hose routes across then downward (through the water outlet) to the engine block. Since this engine has no water in the intake manifold, it must come out the block. Regardless, when that thermostat opens, hot water comes OUT to the radiator. 430 is still the only engine I know where Ford put thermostats on the inlet side of the block.

                          Steve, why not try a 180* or a 160* thermostat? They're only a two bucks and commonly available. I believe Thunderbirds came from the factory with 180* 'stats. That would explain why your gauge reads 'hot'.
                          My latest project:
                          CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                          "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                          --Lee Iacocca

                          From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by spujia View Post
                            Nice wine rack.


                            1. The temp sensor or gauge is wrong

                            I'm still not sure what the thermostat opening temp should be - anyone know this number, and what temp the motor should run at?

                            I'm going to install the aftermarket temp gauge and am still debating removing the thermostat, pending knowing what the right opening temp number is...

                            Steve
                            Or..maybe the thermostat has been put in backwards?

                            It has been known to happen,- of course not seeing your block I cannot say if it's possible in your case.
                            A Thunderbirder from the Land of the Long White Cloud.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              For any trouble shooting of cooling problems, I've found that the infrared no contact thermometer provides valuable information without testing sensors, guages, hoses, etc. By aiming it's laser pointer at various locations in the engine compartment it will immediately show blockages, and help identify the temperature when your needle is at M or P.
                              This tool is also invaluable for checking brake temperatures and cylinder exhaust temperatures.
                              For me this little tool has proven a valuable addition to my diagnostic techniques. They are readily available at Sears, Harbor Freight, Amazon, eBay and many other tool outlets. The best quality ones seem to be in the 50-75 range, but well worth it.
                              Carl

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                              • #30
                                I would reaffirm getting a better way to determine temperature than a 50 year old gauge that has no calibration on it. That information is almost meaningless; sticking your finger in is an improvement!

                                Various things to consider:

                                * an infrared temp gun. Harbor Freight. Good for everything from your car to your steak to your infected knee. In this case you can gather data from all over your motor in minutes.

                                Part of what you are on the hunt for are "gradients" or substantial changes in temperature that you can't account for. These might indicate restrictions to coolant flow or air flow.

                                * a digital thermometer. Calibrate your temp gauge by putting the sending unit in boiling water and then jotting down the temperature as it cools, especially at every letter on your gauge (P-M-E-T) as it drops.

                                * overhaul where the sending unit grounds on your motor. Corrosion can make for added resistance, which is what the sending unit is based on. If need be, make up a jumper to a better ground. Not much amperage flowing here, so good connections are a must!

                                * is your ignition timing pretty close to stock?? All other things equal, an engine with advanced timing will run hotter. Along the same lines, are the plugs the same heat range as stock?

                                Just my opinions - has nothing to do with 430s per se, just motors and getting good information.

                                John
                                Last edited by JohnG; December 26th, 2010, 09:34 AM.
                                1958 Hardtop
                                #8452 TBird Registry
                                http://tbird.info/registry/DataSheet...r~equals~8452)

                                photo: http://www.squarebirds.org/users/joh...d_June2009.jpg
                                history:
                                http://www.squarebirds.org/users/johng/OCC.htm

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