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  • Rebuilt 430 Runs Hot

    Greetings,

    Back again! I just rebuilt my 430 in my '60, everything was replaced except the radiator, heater core (and starter). I had the radiator repaired because the upper hose connection weld had broken cleanly off. The radiator guy said the radiator was in good shape. I replaced the temp sensor on the rebuild too.

    Anyway, when I idle the engine, which I just got running, in cool weather the temp gauge gets well into the "P" in "Temp", and I get scared and shut her down. I have a 15lb cap. I see a small bit of water ooze out of the connection to the heater core; one hose to the heater is warm, the other cool...

    Questions:
    1. Can a bad heater core cause enough flow restriction to cause the engine to overheat?
    2. Where can I find a high-volume replacement radiator that will fit right in, and a replacement fan with more blades?

    Thanks!

    Steve
    Last edited by spujia; December 9th, 2010, 01:55 AM. Reason: Forgot to mention year of the car...
    Steve

  • #2
    Also...

    Which hose goes to the top of the heater? The one from the water pump or the one from the manifold?
    Steve

    Comment


    • #3
      There are other things to consider also; Extra friction from the new rings in a newly rebuilt motor, did the rebuilder replace the diverters behind the water pump, and are you running with or without the auxilliary 430 thermostats, is timing correct etc.
      Carl

      Comment


      • #4
        Rebuilt 430 Runs Hot

        Hi Steve,

        I will let our good techies answer your questions regarding the heater hose connections. I would have to do some research to answer that, and some of our members know that information off the top of their heads.

        As for replacing your radiator, if it checks out good, why replace it? However, there are replacement radiators available and fans with more blades. Some have gone the aluminum route, but I think our radiators cool better than aluminum does. I think I read where simplyconnected recently mentioned that. Talk with the various people at our parts vendors. Like Bob at Bob's Bird House or Don at the Bird Nest. You can get a five bladed fan from one of the parts houses. I got my six bladed flex fan from Autozone as I recall. That and a metal fan shroud from a 1963 Galaxie I bought off of eBay keeps Rose running cool. You can get a plastic type shroud from Dearborn, I think it is. Click on the link below my signature and check out the Technical Resource Library. The answers to many questions that come up are often found there. Earlier in the Fall, I drove her in a parade at 5mph and she stayed as cool as a cucumber and it was in the 80's or low 90's.

        Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
        The Terminator..... VTCI #11178
        Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

        https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

        Comment


        • #5
          1. A new motor can tend to run on the warmer side do to all the new parts "wearing" in to place & seating themselves. The coolant diverters behind each waterpump ear (going to the block) are HUGE!!! You have to have them to get the correct coolant flow through the heads/block. Did you install a new waterpump & get the correct thermostat installed correctly?

          And no, a blocked heater core will not cause an engine to overheat.

          2. Did you have the OE radiator cleaned out and flow tested? I know a few members have install the newer 6-blade fans on their Squarebirds with good results. On my 430cid '60 Bird w/ A/C, I still have the stock 5-blade fan- But I recently added a steel fan shroud off a 1961-63 Ford Fairlane/Galaxie Big V-8 car. It did require some moding, but it was nothing any shadetree guy couldn't do on a weekend. Use the search function above to find the thread on the steel fan shrouds.

          -Good luck,
          Jon in TX.
          sigpic
          The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

          VTCI Member#6287.

          Comment


          • #6
            Your engine didn't overheat when new, and it shouldn't now. I assume your gauge is accurate.

            You have a real copper radiator. It can be flow checked. It can be recored, if necessary. Aluminum doesn't transfer heat as well as copper and is much harder to repair.

            Head gaskets installed backwards will cause a new engine to overheat. The word, "FRONT" is plainly marked, and the square edge should be evident in the top-front corner (between the head and block).

            Manufacturers try to balance water flow by the water holes in the head gaskets. Cool water enters the front of the block in car engines. Then it flows across each cylinder, and goes up the rear of both heads, and into the intake manifold (where the thermostat is situated at the hottest point). Head gaskets have tiny or no holes in the front, and much larger holes at the rear cylinders.

            If the gaskets are backwards, water flow never gets to the back cylinders (3, 4, 7, & 8).

            I agree with Jon. Most of the time, your heater valve shuts off water flow.

            Whether heater inlet goes in the top or bottom matters little, as long as hot water flows when you call for heat.

            Check your heat riser valve on your RH exhaust manifold. Make sure it isn't stuck shut, or your radiator will deal with half your exhaust heat. - Dave
            My latest project:
            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
            --Lee Iacocca

            From: Royal Oak, Michigan

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
              Check your heat riser valve on your RH exhaust manifold. Make sure it isn't stuck shut, or your radiator will deal with half your exhaust heat. - Dave
              The 430cid cars didn't have this feature....
              sigpic
              The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

              VTCI Member#6287.

              Comment


              • #8
                Yeah, I forgot about that. The 430 is the only engine without a heat riser.
                My latest project:
                CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                --Lee Iacocca

                From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by partsetal View Post
                  are you running with or without the auxilliary 430 thermostats
                  Carl
                  Carl, do you know of a source for the auxilary thermostats? I've never been able to find them so I've been running without them - and running hot!
                  sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Every once in a blue moon NOS ones pop up on Ebay.

                    They really are only needed for heaters in the colder climate areas. That is why Ford stopped using them in the later Lincoln models...

                    -Jon in TX.
                    sigpic
                    The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

                    VTCI Member#6287.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tbird430 View Post
                      ...They really are only needed for heaters in the colder climate areas...
                      Jon, you guys from Texas slay me. LOL

                      I have only one question for you:
                      How big is your snow blower?

                      Here's Howard, clearing his driveway at home, because snow doesn't go away on its own, for months. Sometimes, we run out of places to put it:



                      Notice those orange stakes in the background (at the left)? Notice how TALL they are? They tell Howard where his driveway STARTS.

                      Howard's 430 could really use block thermostats.- Dave
                      My latest project:
                      CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                      "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                      --Lee Iacocca

                      From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I've been having an interesting conversation with Carl (partsetal). He mentioned the importance of the water diverters in keeping an engine running cool. I had never heard of them. Apparently the original ones were made of steel and tended to rust out and vanish. Carl said the newer ones are made of brass. I don't think my engine ever had them since I've had it. They are parts nos. B8E-8526-A amd B8E-8527-E. The only source I have found for them so far is Lincoln Land (lincolnlandinc.com) in Florida. They show two sizes. 1 1/2" and 1 5/8" at $115/pair. I now have to figure out which size I need for my engine.

                        Update: Lincoln Parts International (lincolnpartsinterntional.com) also lists the diverters in 1 1/2" and 1 5/8" but at $55 per pair. I don't know if they are brass or aluminum, probably aluminum. Classique Cars Unlimited (classiquecars.com) lists brass diverters for $148.50 per pair and Baker's Auto lists them for $110 per pair. Some of these sites recommend measuring the holes in the block before ordering diverters. What I haven't been able to determine is what the rationale is for the different sizes. It may be that the port size for earlier runs was 1 1/2" and later runs 1 5/8" or vice versa. Who knows? I think I will take the water pump off my engine,measure the ports and order the appropriate diverters. Once i have mesured the ports I will post what size they are.

                        I'd also like to get a pair of block thermostats but can't find a source for them. Carl says they occaisionally come up on eBay so I'll have to watch for them.

                        BTW, the tractor is sitting in the garage ready to go whenever it snows. It can sit there all winter and not get any work as far as I am concerned. I had it out a few days ago to clear a skiff of snow. I was a bit like using an elephant gun to kill a fly.
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by Howard Prout; December 11th, 2010, 07:43 AM. Reason: update
                        sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Two questions guys
                          How much hotter does a 430 run without the diverters?
                          Any way to tell what size is needed without pulling the water pump?

                          Oh yeah one other thing
                          What's snow???

                          Richard

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'm movin' to Australia.
                            My latest project:
                            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                            --Lee Iacocca

                            From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 1960_430_AU View Post
                              Two questions guys
                              How much hotter does a 430 run without the diverters?
                              Any way to tell what size is needed without pulling the water pump?

                              Oh yeah one other thing
                              What's snow???

                              Richard
                              I will be able to better answer you questions around August after I have had some experience with the engine running in hot weather.

                              I am going to take the water pump off my engine to see if it has diverters - I am reasonably confident it does not. If not, I am going to install a pair of diverters. If it does, I'll have a look at them to see if they need replacing.

                              My engine has run very hot for a long time - I think I first noticed it after I did some work on it in the early 1980s. I had a lot of parts chrome plated at that time. When I noticed the engine running hot, I concluded that it was due to the chromed parts. On hot days, such as when the temperature is above 90F and the air is humid, the engine temperature gauge can go up to the top, especially if I am in stop and go traffic. If so, I have to pull over and let it cool down. Another scenario is after driving for some distance, I park the car for a few minutes and then try to drive it again. At times you can hear the coolant boiling in the reservoir. Sometimes I also get a fuel pump vapour lock. All this happens even though I have a triple core radiator, a six blade fan and a fan shroud! Assuming my engine does not have diverters, will putting them in make a difference? I don't know - stayed tuned to find out.

                              Is there any way of knowing what size of diverters to use without pulling the water pump? Not that I know of as yet. Maybe it depends on when the engine was built. MEL engines were used in Lincolns into the mid 1960s. From what I have read, Ford stopped installing the block thermostats in MEL engines at some point - maybe they went to larger ports at the same time. Most of the web sites listing diverters advise measuring the size of the ports before ordering diverters. Maybe the size of diverters used depended on the block casting and some were fitted with 1 1/2" diverters and others with 1 5/8" diverters. Who knows?
                              Last edited by Howard Prout; December 11th, 2010, 10:55 AM. Reason: spelling
                              sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

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