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  • 428 Questions

    Good morning all
    Anybody put a 428 in their 65 ?
    Or juiced up the 428 in their 66
    I've read horror stories that would keep Stephen King
    up at night about FPA headers in these.
    I'm just curious.

    I love 65's. Had a Landau. Beautiful car. Gutless wonder though.


  • #2
    All FEs are the same external dimensions, 352-428. Correct me if I'm wrong. I used Sanderson headers in my '64 with the 390 and they fit. There is about 1/16" in play between the spring towers, both sides. Is the car fast? Of course not. At 4400# these things are cruisers.

    Comment


    • #3
      WOW !! 1/16 ? That's a tight fit. Get the butter !!
      That's why I was curious about the 428.
      I'm wondering how the 66's with those ran.

      65 is my favorite year. I should have kept that Landau
      and sold the 60. But it was my dad's. Blah Blah.
      But at this point, I have HAD IT with that thing.

      I'd trade it for a std issue 65 in a second (NO MORE CONVERTIBLES!!)
      or A 59 HT (I like those too)

      Thanks for the inp



      Comment


      • #4
        It's amazing that FE engines are all the same dimensions (and they certainly ARE).

        My Mustang GT came with a 5.0HO EFI. I later pulled that out and retrofit a 351W EFI (just like Cobra of the same years).
        The 351W has identical 5.0 pistons but the stroke is 1/2" longer. That also made the block deck 2" taller, which made the intake wider and the headers taller (longer).

        My point is, FEs take care of all that with different crank stroke, rod length and piston diameters from the inside.

        My Mustang's new power steering bracket was 1/16" from the fender apron, but it fit. These parts either fit or they don't. Sometimes a shoehorn or butter helps. Restorers know that 'bolt-on' parts aren't always bolt-on without some modifications.

        THEN, I worked on my Harley and found out what 'close' really means. They are put together in a specific order OR you'll be taking it apart again to do it right.

        BTW, freight trains have really powerful engines but I'm with Dark Soul... They will never win races. Shelby Cobras were fashioned after little 'teacher's cars' from Europe. Carroll duplicated them in aluminum and squeezed big engines in. THAT's where acceleration lives. And, oh yes, my Mustang GT was a convertible. A true sleeper that kicked @$$ with a cam, headers, an AOD and a 430 RE. - Dave
        My latest project:
        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
        --Lee Iacocca

        From: Royal Oak, Michigan

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by byersmtrco View Post
          WOW !! 1/16 ? That's a tight fit. Get the butter !!
          That's why I was curious about the 428.
          I'm wondering how the 66's with those ran.

          65 is my favorite year. I should have kept that Landau
          and sold the 60. But it was my dad's. Blah Blah.
          But at this point, I have HAD IT with that thing.

          I'd trade it for a std issue 65 in a second (NO MORE CONVERTIBLES!!)
          or A 59 HT (I like those too)

          Thanks for the inp


          Not butter- masking tape on all the parts that want to make contact while you are installing the engine with the headers on. Sometimes duct tape over the masking tape. Because you can't install the headers with the engine in the car.

          I'm not big on convertibles either, although I do have a project car (on hold right now) that is a "one hand 'vert", a 1974 Fiat 124 Spider. My wife loves that car and as soon as I'm done with two other projects that I intend to sell as soon as I can I'll be back on that.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
            My Mustang GT came with a 5.0HO EFI. I later pulled that out and retrofit a 351W EFI (just like Cobra of the same years).

            The 351W has identical 5.0 pistons but the stroke is 1/2" longer. That also made the block deck 2" taller, which made the intake wider and the headers taller (longer).

            My point is, FEs take care of all that with different crank stroke, rod length and piston diameters from the inside.

            Shelby Cobras were fashioned after little 'teacher's cars' from Europe. Carroll duplicated them in aluminum and squeezed big engines in. Dave


            Not to cause a fuss, but rather to be sure accurate information is provided here; and I'm aware even so, no ships would probably be sunk, but I wish to aid here.

            I don't know what year the Mustang GT 5.0 is, but the '93-95 Cobra was also equipped with a 5.0 capacity engine. The exception that I'm aware of and that was outfitted with a version of the 351W engine was the singular year '95 Cobra "R", of which only just over two hundred were produced with controlled distribution.

            351W pistons differ from the 5.0/302/289, if only in the compression height dimension (grudgeon pin to piston deck) which would preclude the ability to interchange them

            The block deck heights are: 351W = 9.500" +/- vs. the 5.0/302/289 = 8.200" =/- this equaling a difference of 1.3" taller in the instance of the 351W.

            The connecting rods in all standard production FE's (332, 352, 390, 406, 410, 427, & 428s) with the exception of the mid-seventy's 360 & 390's in trucks with the non-bushed press-pin rod, are all the same length.

            As far the car Shelby started with, it was the AC Ace, which I'm sure wouldn't have appreciated the comparison presented, as it was a successful and not inexpensive "sports car" in the truest sense, already being produced of aluminum panels before C.S. bought his first one, and never duplicated them but rather the cars were all supplied from AC in England.

            Scott.


            Last edited by pbf777; June 22nd, 2020, 02:26 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              I LIKE IT !!
              Ask about a 428 in a 65 TB and we're talkin' EFI 5.0's in Mustangs
              And 351W rod lengths.
              Anyhow. ALL good info.
              Probl a 351W would fit in a 65 better than an FE
              (Since you have to cap off the exh to fit an FE in
              any Ford with shock towers)
              Or, like in the case of my 60, they put the strg/gear
              an inch away from the motor.

              And yeah. I have a Harley too.
              NO room for error with that.
              At least the exh port isn't 1/2" away from the frame

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by pbf777 View Post



                Not to cause a fuss, but rather to be sure accurate information is provided here; and I'm aware even so, no ships would probably be sunk, but I wish to aid here.

                I don't know what year the Mustang GT 5.0 is, but the '93-95 Cobra was also equipped with a 5.0 capacity engine. The exception that I'm aware of and that was outfitted with a version of the 351W engine was the singular year '95 Cobra "R", of which only just over two hundred were produced with controlled distribution.

                351W pistons differ from the 5.0/302/289, if only in the compression height dimension (grudgeon pin to piston deck) which would preclude the ability to interchange them

                The block deck heights are: 351W = 9.500" +/- vs. the 5.0/302/289 = 8.200" =/- this equaling a difference of 1.3" taller in the instance of the 351W.

                The connecting rods in all standard production FE's (332, 352, 390, 406, 410, 427, & 428s) with the exception of the mid-seventy's 360 & 390's in trucks with the non-bushed press-pin rod, are all the same length.

                As far the car Shelby started with, it was the AC Ace, which I'm sure wouldn't have appreciated the comparison presented, as it was a successful and not inexpensive "sports car" in the truest sense, already being produced of aluminum panels before C.S. bought his first one, and never duplicated them but rather the cars were all supplied from AC in England.

                Scott.

                Scott, I should have said that the 5.0 and the 351W both share 4" bores. I can assure you that many 5.0 applications ended up with 351 Windsors. That 200 number you cite for Cobra-R? I saw many more than that when I worked in Dearborn Assembly, and not only in one model year. It's funny to me that Mustang Cobra came ONLY with a stick shift while the truck versions of the 351W came ONLY with automatics.

                Ford Lightning F-150s were produced with the 351W block and Ford Racing offered the short block at MUCH cheaper prices than buying a Cobra-R engine. Then, Ford supercharged the 351W in the Harley-Davison F-150. ALL these parts were readily available from Ford including longer headers (because the deck height was longer than the 5.0), throttle body (because the intake was wider than the 5.0), oil pans, pickups, distributors, etc. In fact, many speed shops offered KITS to turn your Mustang 5.0 into a 351W beast.

                My Mustang GT was a Fox body 351W EFI convertible, AOD w/stall & shift kit, 4.30 RE, Flow Masters, etc. Michigan winters took a toll on the body of my Mustang so I sent the body to the bone yard. I have the drivetrain.

                Ford produced over 8 Million 351W engines. The 'official' production numbers you hear never include dealership or specialty shop mod's that Ford used, like my good friend John Vermeersch's Total Performance. John put many one-off engines and drive trains together as an independent contractor for Ford Motor Co.

                Not all FE engines used the same con rods at all. 390 and up had common 3.784" stroke with 6.488" rods. 332 and 352 cu in engines had 3.5" strokes that required longer 6.54" rods. - Dave
                My latest project:
                CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                --Lee Iacocca

                From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by simplyconnected View Post
                  Ford Lightning F-150s were produced with the 351W block ........................... Then, Ford supercharged the 351W in the Harley-Davison F-150.

                  Not all FE engines used the same con rods at all. 390 and up had common 3.784" stroke with 6.488" rods. 332 and 352 cu in engines had 3.5" strokes that required longer 6.54" rods. - Dave

                  You are correct, sorry I had a brain fart, 332 & 352's did have the shorter rod, but the rest are all the same, except as noted previously. The 3.78" stroke is also shared with the 406 & 427 cu. in. engines but others varied as did bore dimensions of course. And all of the same block deck height of 10.17" +/-.

                  Just for note: I don't believe the 351W was utilized in the H.D. trucks as their tenure was of the years 2000-2012, those with the superchargers were of the 5.4 Modular family of engines; but there was the 1985 150 H.O. option which provided the 351W with the four barrel carburetor. This I believe being only the second time a four barrel carb. was placed on the 351W (for passenger car application), the other being the '69 "M" code option.

                  Scott.




                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by byersmtrco View Post
                    Probl a 351W would fit in a 65 better than an FE
                    (Since you have to cap off the exh to fit an FE in
                    any Ford with shock towers)
                    Or, like in the case of my 60, they put the strg/gear
                    an inch away from the motor.

                    Sorry about the wandering off topic.

                    Stick with the FE as one would believe more than adequate performance could had, particularly if working with the 428 cubic inch version, which if not concerned for originality that's what I would suggest.

                    For a driver/cruiser, don't get caught up in hop-up speed parts, go for the cubes and a few mild improvements and it'll be more enjoyable over time.

                    Scott.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by pbf777 View Post
                      You are correct, sorry I had a brain fart, 332 & 352's did have the shorter rod, but the rest are all the same, except as noted previously...
                      Scott, read my post. 332/352 FEs had a LONGER rod because the stroke was shorter.
                      Rod length is determined by stroke. If you put 352 rods on a 390 crankshaft, the pistons would poke through the top of the block!
                      Conversely, if you put 390 rods on a 352 crankshaft, the pistons would never make it to the top of the block. - Dave

                      My latest project:
                      CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                      "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                      --Lee Iacocca

                      From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You tell em Dave !!
                        HA HA !!
                        Long rods or short rods
                        352's were pigs !!!!!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I like a spirited discussion and Scott is usually on the money. I must have caught him on an off day because Scott owns a speed shop and he must know better. In fairness he did say, "I had a brain fart...". I get them too in my old age so I understand completely.

                          The wonderful part about FE engines is that parts may be swapped in different combinations to attain specific results for racing, construction equipment, marine, etc. I like that. Other Ford engines do not offer such diversity.

                          The 352 was quickly introduced by Ford because the 'Y-block' had so many design flaws. Notice that Thunderbird never used the 'Y' after 1957. The FE was and is an improvement over the 'Y' but Ford wasn't done making improvements. The problem with the 'Y' was that it could not be changed. For instance, the lifters cannot be hydraulic because they are physically too skinny. Then, there are those 'siamese exhaust ports' in the middle of each head. Over & Under intake ports sound great but Ford quickly dropped that as well.

                          FE engines improved because Ford COULD change them. Early FEs had solid lifters, then they were hydraulic. The 352 used a 'button' cam, then Ford changed that to a thrust plate. FE engines also got much bigger (390, 427-8) whereas the 'Y' capped out at 312 cu in.

                          So, there is a huge problem for us restorers when Ford drops an engine. Improved 'Y-block' parts are rare unless John Mummert makes them in aftermarket (like aluminum heads & intake or true roller timing sets). 430 MEL parts are SUPER rare, especially pistons, oil pumps and block thermostats. Early FE engine parts like for the 352 are much more expensive with fewer choices than the 390 (and up) because vendors dedicate their shelf space toward more popular and later designs.

                          As a classic Ford owner and restorer, I'm ****ed pi$$ed at Ford. I see them at major cruises and car shows but NONE of the big-3 support our classic cars with parts. It's Ford's fault that 430s and 352s were limited in use and in production numbers. By contrast, Ford put the 390 in everything for decades, now aftermarket offers whatever you want at a decent price. Loyal Ford people know not to count on Ford for any classic Ford parts. What's worse? Aftermarket parts must be licensed by Ford if they use Ford's logo, even though Ford never made the part (like tail light lenses or sealed beams).
                          My latest project:
                          CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                          "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                          --Lee Iacocca

                          From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have headers in my '65 Landau. They fit real nice.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Sorry for the slow reply
                              Do you happen to have any pics ? I'm just curious.
                              I LOVE 65's.
                              I really regret selling my Landau and keeping this
                              tuna barge.

                              Comment

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