Oil Slinger

[Spk99]

Hey guys!
When I stripped my stock 352 to start the rebuild, there was no oil slinger on the crank.
Is one absolutely necessary? Internet is suggesting not, but……..
If it is, does anyone know where I can get one or have one for sale?

cheers

[jopizz]

If it didn't serve some purpose Ford probably wouldn't have spent the money to install it. You can check with Carl Heller (partsetal). He probably has one. If not I'm sure there are some on Ebay. All FE engines (352, 390, 428) used the same one.

John

[Spk99]

Hi John, Yeah completely agree with your statement - I just couldn't find any site that said you MUST have it. They all said if it isn't there don't worry. Trying to find one in Australia. Dont suppose you know if the Windsor or 429-460 engines used the same?

[jopizz]

It has to be an FE engine. A small block or 429-460 won't fit. It keeps high pressure oil from bombarding the timing cover crank seal. After awhile your crank seal may start leaking if it's not there.

John

[Spk99]

no worries thats all Ive found in Australia - will widen the search

[simplyconnected]

There is no oil port per se, to lube the timing chain. This was a problem dating back to Y-block days. Old oil, typically blowby gasses, comes up the front of your oil pan and that's all the oil the chain gets. Ford put a couple holes in the casting just above the cam sprocket but then they canted the engine down in the back so valley oil cannot possibly get to the chain.

You will see crusty scales of oil all over the chain area, not liquid oil, which is clear evidence of oil starvation.
This is a 390 'virgin teardown':

DSCN7074a.jpg

Notice all the coked (yes, coked) oil, even in the slinger. The discoloration screams, 'HEAT' which is also why half the Delrin nylon teeth are missing on the cam sprocket. If there was good oil flow, especially with detergent oil, the area would be clean down to the casting iron but it's not. The inside of the timing cover bears the same witness.

After some light scraping, this is what we get which isn't much better:

DSCN7081.jpg

Even the thrust plate looks bad but notice... There is an 'oil groove' in the plate at about 11 o'clock. Not much oil ever got there.

So, where do we get oil to correct the starved chain? Let's look back at a Y-block because these oil issues have been addressed far longer than FE oil modifications. There is an oil passage that runs between the crankshaft's #1 bearing and the camshaft's #1 bearing. We can drill a small hole under the thrust plate and make a small 'trench' in the plate to control flow. We don't need much, just a drop every minute or so. Tim McMasters shows us where he drills the hole in this Y:

YGPCD8a.jpgYGPCDEa.jpg

After oil bleeds down the front of the block, Ford used to use a small 'pan' that kinda looks like a triangle but it is bent out so dripping oil deposits onto the middle of the timing chain, just above the crank sprocket. This works out perfectly and I use it in my Y-block AND FE builds.

When I install seals I always lube them. A dry seal won't last very long. By their nature, oil seals are made to be 'wet' and they do a good job of keeping the engine from leaking oil out of the crank area.

To answer your question directly, I never found a good use for slingers so I don't use them. I hope you incorporate oil modifications in your build. - Dave

[Spk99]

Thanks Dave - great info as always!
As you can see from my photo, my chain was very clean - maybe too clean? Not much oil there really, but not sure how much should be there.
IMG_5491.JPG

Also my cam doesn't have a thrust plate. Everything was exceptionally clean behind that timing cover and there were no leaks prior. The inside of the timing cover was also clean with no burn marks.
IMG_5497.JPG

Would you still suggest drilling the hole?
Cheers
Steve

[60birdaussie]

Hi Steve, can you PM me, might know someone who has a slinger.
cheers
Randall

[YellowRose]

Steve, I correspond with Randall a lot, and in fact he was just in your part of the country, having come from there originally. Before he hit the sack he emailed me and said he knows a bloke who has a lot of FE parts and he was going to contact him and see if he has a slinger. If so, he will PM you his name and phone number. I had hoped that he would hook up with you or Bill or others there, after I gave him your user id's. It would be cool if he was able to do so.

[Spk99]

Thanks Ray - yep saw the post from him and have sent him a PM. If his contact doesn't have one, Carl has offered me one

[simplyconnected]

...Would you still suggest drilling the hole?..

Steve, I'm looking at your pictures. The cam you have is a 'button cam' which was stock back in Squarebird assembly days. I'm also looking at Permatex Ultra RED sealant, which was NOT available back in the day. You have red RTV all over your oil pan too. Evidently, your timing chain was changed, they probably forgot to put the slinger back on and the area was cleaned (as it should be) before re-assembly which was not that long ago. Original timing chains are now so sloppy they make ignition timing erratic.

Back in Squarebird days, non-detergent oil was the only offering. So, it was simply labeled, 'motor oil'. When detergent oil came out, OEMs were slow to use it because engines with caked-on dirt that switched to detergent oil suddenly found their pickup screens were clogging. Finally, detergent oil became the standard. I'm a firm believer in detergent oil. It keeps your engine clean as a whistle inside. (Remember, all oil gets munched up in the oil pump BEFORE it gets to the oil filter. In cold Michigan winters, oil becomes so thick that much of it gets bypassed in the filter, dirt and all.)

Ok, what to do. Again, I ask myself, 'What do OEMs use?' If this was my engine, I would change away from the button cam setup because not many choices are manufactured and prices are too high. Most of the vendors went with 1963 (and later) cams that use thrust plates including roller cams. Thrust plates are available and all you need to do is to tap an existing hole for the bolt. Another problem is finding double roller timing chain sets for button cams. Prices are driven by supply and demand. The demand for button cam components is nearly nil so prices are high.

I won't put an FE together without a roller cam and a 'true roller' timing set. Too many new flat tappet cam sets are showing defects in lifter heat treat and they forever require ZDDP additive. Rollers do not. That's why Ford isn't seeing 'bad lifter' problems.

True roller timing sets are commonplace so the price is low. Here's a 1963 and later FE set for $55 from Summit Racing:

Summit Racing SUM-G6608R-9 Summit Racing™ True Roller Timing Sets | Summit Racing

If you decide to use a thrust plate, I WOULD drill the hole for positive timing chain oiling. Many owners ask that their engine be rebuilt 'to original' without realizing that our modern materials are far better and so are our methods. All of the OEMs now use more costly moly rings, roller cams and roller chains (and they never looked back. - Dave

[Spk99]

Hi Dave

Yes the previous owner stripped and cleaned the engine. I misunderstood this to have meant rebuilt - anyway you live and learn. So this is why Im rebuilding the engine AFTER completing everything else. It hasn't done many miles since is was 'cleaned' so that probably accounts for how clean it all is.

Many owners ask that their engine be rebuilt 'to original' without realizing that our modern materials are far better and so are our methods.

This is me in a nutshell! Unfortunately, I have now bought a new button cam, lifters, push rods, timing set etc etc based on simply replacing what was there. The only modifications Ive done is a new MSD dizzy, electric fuel pump and new carb.

I think Ive sourced a slinger so will probably go down that route as the budget doesn't allow me to change direction now and get a different setup.

Really appreciate your time though in providing all this info!

[simplyconnected]

Suit yourself (and your finances). I'm glad to bring up this topic because many of our members have the same questions.
Most classic car owners do not put many miles on their baby so maybe this info is irrelevant but, an original FE engine was lucky to get 90,000 miles. Today's engines get 250,000 (or there is something wrong). Why such a difference? They both have cast iron blocks and aluminum pistons... or do they?

Modern cars come from the factory with EFI, hypereutectic alloy pistons, moly rings, hydraulic roller cams, true roller timing sets, and many have aluminum heads (with stainless valves, bronze guides, hardened seats and Viton seals) and aluminum intake manifolds. None of these features were around back in the day. To make matters worse, all the 1960 fuels and oils are no longer available. The bottom line boils down to gasohol savings over the life of the build even though modern engines are more expensive to build (but end up far cheaper over the life of the engine). All of these improvements can be done to our FE's, turning them into modern engines that produce more HP using over the counter oil and pump gas.

Your engine was built with 10:1 compression ratio and designed to run with lead in the gasoline. Now, classic cars built to those standards dial their ignition timing WAY back, causing unburned fuel to quench the combustion chamber. Otherwise, factory ignition settings cause pre-ignition, knock, overheating, horrible gas mileage and a drastic reduction in HP when burning unleaded gasohol. Aluminum heads conduct heat 4X faster than cast iron which easily allows 10.5:1 compression ratio and it allows higher coolant temps. We go by 'horsepower-to-weight' for acceleration so using aluminum is a shoe-in.

BTW, here is an offering for an FE camshaft thrust plate:
FE camshaft thrust plate - JEGS High Performance.

I usually suggest buying a '63 or later 390 and overhauling that because it ends up costing less than building a 352. - Dave

[Spk99]

Thanks Dave, I do appreciate your input mate, please don't think I don't! It is finances that dictate most decisions on these builds and had I not already bought everything, I would have done everything that you said. Unfortunately, I didn't. Im not a mechanic by any stretch of the imagination but always willing to learn. My entire 'education' has been online and there seems to be many differing opinions out there - such as the 'need' for the slinger. Anyway, Im doing my best and thought I had bought the correct parts to rebuild a lasting engine. Only time will tell I suppose. Thanks again for your assistance.

[simplyconnected]

Steve, we all start out knowing nothing about cars. The attraction and hobby exposes us to a knowledge as deep as our willingness to learn, usually starting in our teenage years. The Internet helps us learn and forums such as this offers many opinions to be heard with popular answers/solutions. I love your post because it will help others with similar concerns. It started about the need for a part, then the 'why' part opened up discussion.

Modern engines are much more difficult to learn because of all the controls and changes. Squarebird engines are far easier to learn because they are about as basic as can be. They are the foundation of modern offerings.

If our cars share the road with modern cars, 'factory stock' is dangerous because Squarebirds came with non self-adussting shoe brakes, no seat belts, bias-ply tires, single-piston master cylinders, etc. 'Pure stock' classics belong on trailers or in garages mainly because modern drivers have no idea about 'safe distances' that classics require. Whenever I see a trailer hitch on a Squarebird's bumper, my skin crawls.

You're doing well, Steve. Keep digging and learning. Please continue to post your questions and concerns. - Dave