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  • WOW!!!

    I've been following the pics of your 430cid Bird Howard (thank you). Even if you figure out how to get this set-up working on your Bird, I can't even begin to imagine doing something so simple as changing the spark plugs or even a valve cover gasket!!


    -Jon in TX.
    sigpic
    The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

    VTCI Member#6287.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tbird430 View Post
      WOW!!!

      [COLOR=royalblue]I've been following the pics of your 430cid Bird Howard (thank you). Even if you figure out how to get this set-up working on your Bird, I can't even begin to imagine doing something so simple as changing the spark plugs or even a valve cover gasket!! COLOR]


      -Jon in TX.
      Thats scary !!!! V/C Gskts & plugs are easy. Trying to get one of these tanks to stop . . . Now thats hard !!![/
      John Byers
      1960 Convertible (Orig owner)
      sigpic

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Howard Prout View Post
        A few developments have occurred since my last post. First, Old Irish Dave could not come up with a solution to the interference problem with the snorkel and master cylinder. Ray did a lot of digging for me and found both shorter boosters and shorter MCs - so the interference problem with the snorkel could be overcome. Second, I made the spacer brackets long enough to allow the push rod from the brake pedal arm to be level. However, this set the booster bracket too low and the left side bracket hit the steering column. So I made shorter spacer brackets hoping that the angle of the push rod from the brake pedal arm would not be too severe and still work. I installed the new spacer brackets and the booster brackets and the outer face of the booster bracket was just far enough from the firewall for the booster to clear the AC plenum. Third, when I went to install the booster, there was an interference problem with the valve cover. In fact, when the booster was fastened with its bottom studs in the top holes of the booster bracket, there was only about a half inch clearance with the valve cover. The vertical stud spacing on the booster is 3 1/2" so that is the amount the booster would have to be lowered to use the booster bracket as intended. The next step was to see if the system would work with the booster in the "high" position. This would require re-engineering of the pivot arm in the booster bracket. I noticed that the top of the booster was close in height to the top of the air cleaner so before doing anything else I tried closing the hood (very gently). It won't close - there is a hood brace in the same location as the booster that will not allow the hood to close. I think the same issues would exist with a 352 and AC as I don't think there is that much difference in engine heights between a 352 and a 430. So, does anyone have AC and a Bendix style booster? If so, would you provide some pictures of the booster installation.
        I'm just curious why you went with such a "deep" booster? On mine the whole deal (brkt & all) is 16.5" from the firewall. It's WAY away from where the air cleaner snorkle would be (I have a 62 style a/clnr)
        John Byers
        1960 Convertible (Orig owner)
        sigpic

        Comment


        • Originally posted by byersmtrco View Post
          I'm just curious why you went with such a "deep" booster? On mine the whole deal (brkt & all) is 16.5" from the firewall. It's WAY away from where the air cleaner snorkle would be (I have a 62 style a/clnr)
          The booster and mc are what OID sent us as well as the booster brackets. The problem was to move the booster out from the firewall far enough to clear the a/c plenum. With the ABS offset bracket the interference problem with the a/c plenum is overcome as is the height problem, at least hopefully. The problem is that ABS will not sell us just the offset bracket, we have to buy another booster to get it. Ray is going to check with Gearheads to see if they have the bracket we need.
          sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

          Comment


          • I spoke w/Ray about that yesterday.
            How far out from the firewall does the plenum stick out?

            I'm sure I've seen my brkt arraingment on an AC (352) car. In fact, I think that's what it's for. It was a brkt kit that included the rod and the boot.

            You "could" always do away with the snorkle. I'm sure that 430 won't miss that!! It's not like it's going to look totally orig under the hood. The pre-heat tubes (exh/manif) to snrkle was just a way to warm the eng up faster (for emission purposes only).

            Nice of them to only sell that brkt (with) the booster. Typical !!!
            John Byers
            1960 Convertible (Orig owner)
            sigpic

            Comment


            • Ray searched the world over and couldn't find anyone who would sell us the brackets needed. I'm not even sure they exist. So, necessity being the mother of invention, I decided to see if I could make my own brackets. With the help of Dave Dare (simplyconnected) a design was developed. The primary issue was postioning the booster enough above the brake pedal push rod to clear the valve cover and provide clearance for the AC plenum. The next thing was to move to a prototype. I was fortunate to find a small sheet metal shop that has some great CNC equipment including a laser cutter and a brake press. I gave the guy files in DXF format that he fed directly into his machine's computer. He cut and bent the pieces for me for only $50! There were small glitches along the way, but they were resolved. Two issues of significance were spacing the side brackets far enough apart to allow the neck of the booster to go between them and narrowing the sidepieces at the bottom near the pivot pin to clear the steering column. In the end, the AC plenum was not a limiting factor. I now don't think there is a need for special brackets for AC equipped vehicles - the same brackets will work on both AC and non AC equipped Squarebirds. The brackets we developed set the booster four inches out from the firewall which is about as close as you can get because of the booster push rod. Now its time to get on with the job of making the disc conversion.

              PS. In the last picture it looks as though the bracket on the right is lower than the one on the left. The brackets were just loosely position - in the final installation, they have to be at the same level.
              Attached Files
              Last edited by Howard Prout; February 20th, 2010, 05:02 PM. Reason: Addn'l info
              sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

              Comment


              • New Bracket

                Howard; Nice looking bracket. What does the piviot levers look like that attach the pedal lever to the booster rod? I was just wondering.
                Gary

                Comment


                • The pivot point is at the bottom of the bracket. The pushrod from the brake pedal arm connects to the pivot arms 1/3 the way up the pivot arms. If you look closely you can see the pin connecting the brake pushrod to the pivot arm through the hole in the side of the braket. The top pin connects the pivot arm to the booster pushrod. An old MC is being used as a surrogate for the firewall to ensure the right bolt pattern. Note that at this point the pushrod for the booster is too long. I wil cut half an inch off it to move the top of the pivot arm away from the firewall to prevent interference.
                  Attached Files
                  sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

                  Comment


                  • I hope I'm not raining on Howard Prout's parade, but I am so very excited and proud of Howard. I want to announce;
                    Howard is done installing his new power disk brake system. He is bleeding his brakes and will test it today.

                    To recap some of the obstacles, Howard’s Squarebird has a 430ci engine with factory air. The plan was to buy a two-stage booster & dual M/C combination system. After examining many claims, no vendor makes or sells a firewall bracket that will work. Ray Clark, Howard Prout, and myself, searched everywhere.

                    Howard designed and fabricated the necessary bracket parts to do his car and Ray’s YellowRose. There have been many revisions and trials. In fact, we planned to install this project last January.

                    Howard did a brake makeover for his car including:
                    · New front disk brakes
                    · New hoses all around
                    · New rust-proof brake lines (copper/nickel alloy)
                    · Self-adjusters for the rear brakes
                    · New 8” two-stage booster and dual master cylinder, and combination proportioning valve.

                    There is much more, but I will let Howard tell you. Hopefully, we will have some pictures, too. GOOD JOB, Howard!
                    My latest project:
                    CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                    "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                    --Lee Iacocca

                    From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                    Comment


                    • Further to Dave's comments, the disc brake conversion on my car is progressing. As Dave mentioned, we could not find appropriate booster brackets anywhere so I ended up designing some and having them made. While they work, there is an interference problem with the steering column which causes the brackets to be tilted a bit - I don't like that. A couple of comments on the installation. First, the axle collars I received with the caliper brackets from Scarebird slid onto my axle shafts quite easily so they axle shafts and the inside surface of the collars had to be knurled to make a tight fit. Second, as has been mentioned by others, the S-10 calipers are designed to have the flex hoses exit sideways towards the middle of the vehicle. That doesn't work well on Squarebirds so the rear side of the casting where the flex hose attaches has to be ground off and the flexhose angled towards the back of the vehicle. It can't go straight back as it would hit the tire, but about 30 deg towards the centre. Otherwise the conversion went smoothly. As I said, I have a bit of a problem with the booster brackets I had made but I redesigned and hopefully those problems will be taken care of. I think the proportioning valve Ray got for me from a junkyard isn't funtioning properly (Dave doesn't think this is the case) so I am going to get another one and try it. At this point the brakes aren't quite what they should be. It may be the proportioning valve or it may be not enough travel in the MC. The rear axle wil lock up on loose material and the front of the car dives a bit on hard stops, but the system isn't working the way I think it should. Part of the problem may be the soft pads I used as they will take a while to seat properly. When I get it figured out and working I'll let you know the rest of the story. BTW, I am using 14" x 6" disc brake compatable Granada rims with no problems.
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by Howard Prout; March 13th, 2010, 02:02 PM. Reason: editing
                      sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by byersmtrco View Post

                        You "could" always do away with the snorkle. I'm sure that 430 won't miss that!! It's not like it's going to look totally orig under the hood. The pre-heat tubes (exh/manif) to snrkle was just a way to warm the eng up faster (for emission purposes only).
                        Here I go clashing with the brass again...

                        The 430 MEL had no exhaust gas crossover provision in the intake. For cold air operation, it relied on the specially designed Three-Stage Cooling System that heated the carb pad with hot coolant. The heated air intake was to allow heating the fuel mixture (via choke hot air stove) and keep it in suspension until the coolant temp rose and the choke/fast idle finally kicked off. It also had a flapper valve at the inlet that opened and allowed under hood air in once the engine warmed.

                        That particular part of the design called for the block thermostats to be operational and we all know they have been deleted in most applications and are not available for service. So actually, that inlet duct is important unless one lives and operates in warm ambient temps all parts of the year.

                        On LINC-MERC applications, there was a fresh air inlet tube attached to bring in outside cool air.

                        I will now duck back into my spider hole to hopefully miss any incoming.

                        BTW- Those fabricated brackets are nicely done.

                        Comment


                        • ............................................................ ......

                          Originally posted by KULTULZ View Post
                          Here I go clashing with the brass again...

                          I keep forgetting I live in pretty much a non-choke climate. I've even removed the choke butterfly before and just used the fast idle.
                          I know (nothing) about these 430's. I just figured it was a TAC snorkle like any other (where most have been removed). I didn't realize it was so integral to the eng warm up.
                          I'm sure if I did have a 430, it would have the big ol' 750 Edelbrock Carb on there with the electric choke.

                          The 430 MEL had no exhaust gas crossover provision in the intake. For cold air operation, it relied on the specially designed Three-Stage Cooling System that heated the carb pad with hot coolant. The heated air intake was to allow heating the fuel mixture (via choke hot air stove) and keep it in suspension until the coolant temp rose and the choke/fast idle finally kicked off. It also had a flapper valve at the inlet that opened and allowed under hood air in once the engine warmed.

                          That particular part of the design called for the block thermostats to be operational and we all know they have been deleted in most applications and are not available for service. So actually, that inlet duct is important unless one lives and operates in warm ambient temps all parts of the year.

                          On LINC-MERC applications, there was a fresh air inlet tube attached to bring in outside cool air.

                          I will now duck back into my spider hole to hopefully miss any incoming.

                          BTW- Those fabricated brackets are nicely done.
                          John Byers
                          1960 Convertible (Orig owner)
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • Disk Brake Conversion Discussion

                            Gary ~ 1946hamm, has just completed his disc brake conversion. Here is what he had to say and also some pix of his installation and his '60 Convertible stick shift Tbird. Posted with his permission.

                            "I thought I would update you on my disc brake conversion. I got the power booster and master cylinder installed. I used a GM combination valve since it mounted under the master cylinder and made running the brake lines easier. I also mounted the stop light switch plumbed into the rear brake line right beside the master cylinder and secured to the fender well as in the picture. I took the lines for the front brakes out of the original block where they all come together and used 2 plugs to plug the extra ports on the original 4 port block . I then had to only run one line up to the combination valve for the rear brakes. I ran a separate line to the left front disc brake caliper and a separate line over to the right front caliper. This made only 3 new lines and all were easy to run. I bench bled the master cylinder with the combination valve attached so the only bleeding was for the new lines. It worked out well. On the road test I found out I need new shocks since the brakes worked so well. It is unbelievable how much better it stops now.

                            I also fabricated a fan shroud from one I got off of eBay. Fit the newly cored radiator well. I also included some pictures of that. I also put on a 6 bladed fan in place of the old 4 blade."

                            Ohh, he also said that he put on an alternator to replace the old generator. New belts and new hoses, new tires and wheels also. His disc brake conversion is detailed in the Technical link below. Here are the pix.
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by YellowRose; March 18th, 2010, 12:10 PM.

                            Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
                            The Terminator..... VTCI #11178
                            Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

                            https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 1946hamm View Post
                              ...It is unbelievable how much better it stops now...
                              What a great job! Everything looks like it belongs there, and I like how accessible the brake light switch is.

                              Looks like Gary found, his brakes are working so well the front end dives under hard braking and bounces back up when the car stops. Now you can drive with confidence, when those little cars zoom in front of you and hit their brakes in traffic. Good going, Gary. - Dave
                              My latest project:
                              CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                              "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                              --Lee Iacocca

                              From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                              Comment


                              • Nicely done, Gary. My plumbing is not as neat and tidy as yours. The first pix shows my booster, MC and proportioing valve. The second pix shows the stop light switch. I'm still struggling with my installation. The booster mounting bracket and pushrod are still giving me trouble and I'm not sure I have the booster/MC interface interface issues resolved. Apparently I was supposed to get a "slug" to go between the booster and MC but didn't get one so I used a longer machine screw on the output shaft from the booster to engage the MC. Dave Dare (simplyconnected) had an extra proportioing valve and has sent it to me so I will try it when it gets here. However I now think the PV I have may be working properly.

                                Where did you get your booster bracket? What did you use for a pushrod? Did you have a problem with interference with the steerng column? I didn't see any pictures of the booster installation, do you have some?
                                Attached Files
                                sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

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