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  #21  
Old 04-17-2009, 04:01 PM
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PM = Private Message

Go to Members List, click on "A" for a list, click Alan H Tast for his profile, in the top left you'll find contact info, select send Private Message.
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  #22  
Old 04-17-2009, 05:23 PM
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Hi Gregg,

First of all, thanks, Ken for explaining what PM means and how to do it. You can send any pictures of your Tbird you would like posted to me, and I will post them for you. My email address is: rayclark07@gmail.com

Thank you for the compliments. We are just a bunch of guys who love Tbirds helping others who also love them. As to who created the Squarebirds Forum, we have Alexander Sosiak to thank, and SandyBoy and others. Unfortunately, as you might have seen, if you looked up in the top of this forum, Alexander passed away last year. He was a great guy, another person who knew his Thunderbirds, and we suffered a great loss with his passing.
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'59 Tbird "The Yellow Rose Of Texas" aka "Tweety Bird"
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Last edited by YellowRose : 04-17-2009 at 05:25 PM.
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  #23  
Old 04-17-2009, 07:22 PM
trim code 76 trim code 76 is offline
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Ray, I will be sending you a bunch of pics, I have not yet photographed the door panels with the last day, last car on them yet, they are in the garage and right now it is dumping rain so I will have to get out there in the next day or two and get those sent off. Ken, thanks for the PM info, I will send it off to Alan very soon. I will keep you posted. Cheers.
P.S. Sorry to here about Alexander. He helped me out before, i wandered what happened. He was a good guy, always helpful. He will be missed. We will carry on for him.
Greg
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  #24  
Old 04-18-2009, 01:22 AM
Hawkrod Hawkrod is offline
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I am late to the party as usual so I figured I will just write a little and repost a bunch of old posts from various forums to help clear the issue and dispell some myths. First thing I will say is cars were not pulled from the line for options or different engines etc... The cars were all built the same way and it did not natter what engine was being installed. This is because cars were batch built based on needs. If a 430 car required special handling (which it should not have) then they would have simply done a group of them at the same time, not pulled one off the line and sent elsewhere. This is also specifically why the cars serial number has nothing to do with the order it was built in. You can have two cars that are one number apart and they could have been built weeks apart. This is the norm not an exception. Also, one of the most critical and least understood concepts on Fords is the date code on the door tag. The date on the door has absolutely nothing to do with the day the car was built. The date on the door tag is the day that the car is scheduled to be finished on the day the order is entered in the system. It is actually amazing how few cars are built as scheduled. Another falacy is "the last scheduled day of production". That is absolutely never the last day that cars are built. After regular production ceased Ford continued building cars that are called "balance out" cars. These are unfinished scheduled units, defective units that are repaired and returned to the line and if there are enough spare parts it will also include a few cars built to use up the parts. There are usually only a few dozen at the most but these cars are always built after the last scheduled date and often when the new model cars are actually being started. The last issue is the total number of cars built versus the highest serial number. The highest serial number will always exceed the total number of units built because not all numbers are actually used. Once a serial number is assigned it does not get reassigned even if the car is not built (special orders that get cancelled are an obvious example)

Anyway with all that being said here are some of my old posts on the issues:

Quote:
Originally Posted by trim code 76 View Post
This has stumped me for a while now. I have one of the very last, if not the very last(?) 60 bird built. #92,784. It is completely original, untouched. Where are some of the places to find ROT (build) sheets?? I have looked under both front seats and the rear (both parts), on top of the gas tank, ANY OTHER PLACES TO LOOK??? I would love to find at least one. Also, any ideas on home to pinpoint which dealership my car came from?? I know it was in the Hollywood CA area. Thanks !!! The answers on this should be interesting!

Wow, that is a late serial number, probably within the last 1000 cars produced and could, just as easily, be the last one. Always remember though, cars were not built sequentially, the serial number does not indicate what order the cars were built in and there are also usually a few thousand serial numbers that are not used. So, although there were 98,000+ cars built, the serial numbers may range as high as 105,000 or 110,000 (serial numbers would actually look like OY73Y205000 at this high number) but I have not seen that yet on a 60 Bird. My 60 was built in mid August which was very late as far as normal cars go but not unusual for a Tbird. I would guess your car would have a September date? I have found ROT sheets under the carpet and tucked into seat springs on both front and rear seats.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by vernz View Post
I shot some pictures of 5 junk yard Squarebirds that I will post soon. I included pictures of the data plates and found that the VIN number on one of the 59's is only 383 higher than mine. The date code on mine is 10L (a Tuesday), and the date code on the junk yard car is 13L (a Friday). So that's 383 cars produced in 3-4 days.

Vern

Unfortunately you would be wrong in your assumption. Cars are not built sequentially. A car with a serial number 383 higher than yours could have been built weeks before or after yours. On your build sheet there is a box marked ROT and it has a number in it. The numbers run from 001-999 and then start over. That is the sequence cars are built in. 001 was followed by 002 etc... Cars were batch built based on common features to make the line run faster so they would build a group of say 50 white cars and then 50 red or whatever. If you look at that line picture you will notice that the cars are the same color. I have two 1968 Mercury Cougars, one is 8F93S545119 and the other is 8F93S545139. They are actually twin cars and were built in the same batch but 139 was finished three days before 119. I have also seen 8F93S545117 and it was built 4 days after 139! The serial numbers are no good for figuring out production because the numbers are not related to the assembly process. Hawkrod

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Cars are batch built and they have an ROT number. There are actually two ROT numbers and one is for paint. Keep in mind that the serial number has nothing to do with the order cars are built in. As I have mentioned before, serial number 000001 is not always the first car built. I have also mentioned that I have two otherwise identical special order 1968 Hertz Rent A Car Diamond Blue Cougar XR7-G's and the serial numbers are 8F93S545119 and 8F93S545139, the 139 car was built Friday and the 119 car was built the following Tuesday. The ROT numbers are about 240 apart and that means a lot of cars were built between them! Hawkrod

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Szwarc
Quote:
Originally Posted by 76MarkIV
In this case a car with sequence number of 841002 could have very well been assembled after a car with a sequence number of 843000, or visa-versa.
I don't think this is true. A VIN of 841002 would always come after a VIN of 841001. That's why it's called a sequence number. The orders from the various DSOs are not likely assigned VINs until the cars are built and the orders are filled.
Sorry, you would be mistaken about the number. The sequential unit number has nothing to do with the sequence the cars are built in, it only has to do with the sequence in which the orders were accepted which is the point a serial number is assigned. Cars are batch built to make production easier and cars are assigned ROT numbers which is short for rotation. The ROT number on your build sheet or buck tag is the order cars were actually built in. Rotation numbers are three digit numbers that start 001 and go to 999. The next car after 999 is 001 again because there is almost no chance that the previous 001 is still in the plant although as time went on that did become an issue and so it was changed to a 4 digit number eventually (80's I think). It is very possible that 841002 could be built weeks before 841001. If 841001 was a black car and the only one scheduled or had an unusual option that required extra work it could be built long after a batch of cars that were all the same color or all had the same assembly needs. Specifically, I own three nearly identical cars. They are 1968 Mercury Cougar's. The serial numbers on two of them are 8F93S545119 and 8F93S545139. The 139 car was built 2/29/68 and the 119 car was built 3/04/68. I have also seen 8F93S545117 and it was also built 4 days after 139. The point of this is with Cougars being a much higher production rate car the numbers are out of whack like this so on a slow production car like a MK III a couple of weeks could easily have been normal. I will also note that there is a known very low number 69 Mustang that was ordered in June but not built until December due to unavailability of the engine. The serial number was already assigned but tens of thousands of cars were built before this one rolled down the line. Hawkrod
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  #25  
Old 04-18-2009, 02:03 AM
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First of all, I want to thank Hawkrod for his input on the importance, or more specifically, the lack of importance the serial number or sequential VIN numbers played in the actual production of the cars. That information runs counter to other things I have read and been told, which I took to be fact. It was excellent reading and should help us better understand how these cars were run through the production lines. His comments also high lighted the importance of finding that very elusive ROT or Build Sheet, that so many of us search for but rarely find.

Greg asked where else he could look. Some have said they found their ROT sheet behind the AC unit. I am not sure if they meant the one on the firewall, or up under the dash. Some have found them stuffed up in the dash area. Most, however, when they have been found, were under the carpeting, front or back, or stuck up in the springs of the front seats or the back seats. They could be anywhere, but the old time linemen told us they often put them in the seats, before they battened them down. I read the story that they did not throw them away because it meant just that much more trash to dispose of. So, instead of doing that, while inside the car, they had the ROT sheet(s) with them and just stuffed them into the car interior somewhere. You might check the rear side panels, and those arm rest areas in the back also.

Once again, thank you for sharing the information you did, Hawkrod. It was very interesting!
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  #26  
Old 04-18-2009, 02:55 AM
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Ray,
Thank you for the extra info, I still have not found the ROT sheet, I am afraid to really lift up the carpet, it is really stuck down in a lot of places, probably mostly from time and feet?? It is the original carpet and has never been up. I have taken everything out except the carpet for the paint job and have found nothing, maybe I will try the carpet a little more. Hawkrod has brought some interesting material to the table I have never heard of before. I do not know if this will ever truely be solved (wish "Unsolved Mysteries" was still on TV!). The door panel is the only place I have found anything stating the car is the last one. I do not know if that is enough proof , or that in conjunction with the date code??? I will see what ALan T. has to say and post the reply. To recall what Crnl. Clink said on "Hogens Hero's" ....."Verrrrrry Interesting!!"
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  #27  
Old 04-18-2009, 06:06 AM
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Greg and all. I just finished creating a web page with a ton of pictures on it that Greg sent me, and an overview of his '60 Tbird, and why it MIGHT be the last one made. Read his comments on the things he found in the way of markings in it. And enjoy the pictures of a Tbird that has remained almost entirely original since the day it was born... Here is the link. I'm going to bed!

http://squarebirds.fortunecity.com/GregPrince/GregPrince1960Tbird.htm
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"It's Hip To Be Square"
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rayclark07"at"att.net (Home) 210-674-5781 (Cell) 210-875-1411
http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

Last edited by YellowRose : 05-21-2009 at 04:22 PM. Reason: Change of URL name
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  #28  
Old 04-18-2009, 11:40 AM
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Ray fantastic site and tribute for what could be a very unique car. Your committment to our site does not go unoticed. Great job.
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  #29  
Old 04-18-2009, 02:18 PM
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Very interesting thread as is the posting of the pics. Would luv to see the markings from the door and any other unique markings from the bird.

Finding ROT sheets on squarebirds is an adventure but this one would help a lot in determining thwere it went down the line. Please rmember that the Lincoln was built on the same line as the bird and as stated by Hawk the serial number has nothing to do with when the bird was built.

If the bird has power seats look under the drivers side springs. Most likely under carpeting or in the rear seat springs. It could be anywhere.

Last ?? is about the vin #. The one stamped in the fender is 192744 or at least this is what it appears to be which matches the original owners info. Post a pic of the data plate.

Lots of neat original documentation, and really surprised it has survived to this date.

Fuz
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  #30  
Old 04-18-2009, 03:30 PM
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Hi Fuz,

Yes, this is something of a puzzler. I have already informed Greg that there seems to be a discrepancy between the VIN number cited on the Data Plate,(192784, the one punched into the fender and the one on the Registration card. I looked at the original picture to try to get a better view of it, but they are the same. (It appears to be 192744) Another interesting thing is that the California Registration form is dated 10/20/60! That is a week from time it came off the line to the day it was registered in California! Interesting again! There is also a typo on that DMV Registration card. It says the VIN # is 0171Y192744 NOT 0Y71Y192744.

He has not found the ROT or Build Sheet but it is not because he has not been looking! He has not taken up the carpeting entirely because he has been loath to do so, since it is all original. He might want to take his front seats out and look in the springs area to see if it is there. Boy, that would be a great find if he could come up with that!

Greg is at work and cannot check into this now. He is a firefighter. He was going to get us some pictures of that marking on the door panel, but it was raining. He will be sending more pictures, I am sure, and I will add them to the web page. I hope he will send me a good picture of the Data Plate. I told him to check to see if it looks like it might have been replaced. The original one should have been bradded into place and not screwed on with sheet metal screws. I sent him the graphic that shows the other place that the VIN number was stamped into. According to that graphic, published by Alexander in 2002, it is the passenger side above the firewall on the front cowl. http://www.squarebirds.org/images/vin_location.gif




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http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

Last edited by YellowRose : 04-18-2009 at 06:41 PM. Reason: Additional comments
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