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  #1  
Old 04-23-2017, 10:20 PM
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Penelope Penelope is offline
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Default Water pump pulley for '58-'60 Non-OEM A/C To CAA

I am chasing the holy grail it seems. Has anyone got a spare 3v pulley for a 352 please? Looking to upgrade my '59 to air con....

thank you
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  #2  
Old 04-23-2017, 10:58 PM
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Default Water pump pulley for A/C -- 3 V

Bill, send Carl Heller ~ partsetal a PM. Carl might have what you need, or know where to get it. Or contact the Bird Nest, Tbird Hqs, or some of the other parts houses. Whose equipment are you going to use? I would suggest Classic Auto Air, since they make specific aftermarket AC systems for Squarebirds. They are the ONLY company that I know of who market an off the shelf aftermarket AC system engineered for the 1955-1966 Tbirds. In fact, they might even have that pulley you are looking for.

http://www.classicautoair.com

Their system is called the "Perfect Fit" system. A good number of people are using it, and I know the main CAA technicians there, having helped other Tbird owners put CAA AC systems in their Tbirds.

https://www.classicautoair.com/shop/...ioning-system/
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  #3  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:08 AM
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Hope Carl has one. Scanned the "bay" but didn't see anything except the later 61-63 390 version. Those do not have the pilot for the fan spacer though.

Speaking of which - you may already know but you will need a shorter fan spacer as well. I couldn't find one and believe even Carl didn't have one at the time. Finally found what I needed at Flex-a-lite. Part # 876. 1 inch spacer (you can get those cheap on ebay too). Not 100% certain 1 inch is correct as I was also adding a 70's Ford 400ci flex fan and needed the correct spacing - Carl will know though.

I've wondered lately why you even need the 3V pulley. Believe Classic Auto Air uses a 2V water pump pulley. The pic in the shop manual only shows 2 belts crossing the water pump - Genny and A/C - plus the pulley in the pic does not appear to be the COAE-8509-A pulley.

I suspect the 8509 pulley was used when you also had the 40A generator option with the dual sheave? I installed it on mine but now the A/C belt will not be able to go to the crank pulley only to the water pump sheave. I plan on removing the dual sheave pulley and one belt on the genny then use the belt configuration in the shop manual which will leave an open sheave on the water pump pulley. I have removed the aftermarket compressor bracket and installed a correct one since this pic was taken.



The crankshaft pulley is an add on also. You remove the original single sheave add on to the damper (which gave you 2 sheaves on the crank) and add a dual sheave pulley giving you 3 sheaves on the crank. Carl will probably have that crank pulley as well.

I would suggest using a modern system. I've been buying, restoring and adding the factory parts but bet it will not work as well as the modern systems since the OEM evaporator was designed for R-12. I did use a new condenser and drier designed for R-134. I do like the OEM vent rather than adding the two small vents under the dash (but the OEM chrome dash vent is hard to find too!!!). I cut my dash and used an original. The plenum for the dash vent is now available but you will probably only need part of it and have to make something to connect the 2 small round hoses in the modern system to the rectangle dash plenum.

Ugh - I've rambled enough..

Good luck - keep us posted on the progress.

Eric
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:22 AM
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Bill says he has a 59 which, along with the 58 uses a two sheave pulley. The 60 uses the 3 sheave as Eric has pictured.
Carl
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  #5  
Old 04-25-2017, 09:06 PM
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Default Water pump pulley for A/C -- 3 V

There was some confusion as to which water pump pulley was needed. Bill was thinking 3 groove water pump pulley, which is what he needed for his '60. But in 1958/59, Ford was using the 2 groove water pump pulley. In '58/'59, the generator then had a 1 belt pulley on it, allowing them to use a 2 belt water pump pulley. For whatever reason, in 1960, they put a dual belt pulley on that generator, which required them to use a 3 groove water pump pulley, I gather. By 1960, Ford was using a B8A-8509-A pulley on 352 non-AC '60 Squarebirds, a C0AE-8509-A (1 1/2" pulley & 2 3/8" pulleys) on 352 AC equipped Squarebirds, and a B9SZ-8509-A on 430 AC equipped Squarebirds according to the Ford Parts Text listing.

I have found the right double sheave water pump pulley for Bill! The Bloodhound strikes again! After talking with a lot of our old, or OEM or NOS parts places, and getting leads from them, I finally found a B8A 8509-F, for the '59 Squarebird. Bill has checked the pix of it out and has bought it. So once he gets that, he can go about ordering his CAA "Perfect Fit" AC system! I did not remember that he already had one on his '60 and is pleased with it. Attached is what the '49-'59 & '60-'64 Ford Parts listing shows what is required for the '58 & '59 & '60 Squarebird water pump pulley.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 58-59TbirdWaterPumpPulley.jpg (38.0 KB, 117 views)
File Type: jpg 60-64FordPartsTextListing.jpg (38.0 KB, 120 views)
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  #6  
Old 04-25-2017, 09:17 PM
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Another option for the 430 is the Lincoln
pump and 3rd pulley. Seemed much easier
to find that stuff than bird specific 430 stuff.

http://luxjo.supermotors.net/59%20T-...Y/IMG_1864.JPG
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  #7  
Old 04-26-2017, 03:29 PM
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Default Water pump pulley for A/C -- 3 V

I have moved this out of the For Sale / Part Wanted Forum, because it no longer needs to be there. It contains a lot of information that anyone in the future, who wants to go this AC conversion route needs to know....

Here is what I have learned about upgrading from a non-AC or AC equipped 1958-1960 Squarebird to a Classic Auto Air "Perfect Fit" aftermarket AC system. Bill ~ Penelope, had gone the CAA route on his '60 Squarebird and plans on going the same route for his '59. I have been diligently looking for the correct OEM water pump pulley for a '59 Squarebird for this conversion for Bill, from Down Under. I found that they are as rare as hens teeth to find. But I DID find one and notified of that, and he bought it.

In the CAA install instructions, the FIRST thing it says is that you must obtain a 3 groove water pump pulley from a factory air 352 CID engine... Because the '60 three groove gives the proper alignment, and spacing between the water pump and the back of the radiator, I gather. It may very well be that whoever did the research on this years ago, looked at a 1960 Squarebird instead of a 1958 or 1959 Squarebird. Back in those first two years, the Ford Parts listing was saying that you needed a 2 groove pulley on a AC equipped Squarebird, the B8A-8509-F. That, supposedly, was because there was only a 1 groove pulley on the generator. But in 1960, sometime during production, they switched to a 2 groove generator pulley, and to a 3 groove water pump pulley to get the correct spacing. And maybe used that third groove for something else.

So here is where we are at. I went looking for the OEM 1958-1959 B8A-8509-F because that is what the Ford Parts Text List says is supposed to be on an AC equipped 352 Tbird. And I found one! However, CAA tells me that the B8A-8509-F may NOT work due to not lining up correctly with their components, or improper spacing between water pump and the back of the radiator. OR... It might! Bill will have to try it and see if it works. The problem might be that it does not have the same spacing and line up compared to what they are showing in the first and the second picture of their water pump pulley, spacer, and fan blade in their instructions.

Bill probably has a SINGLE groove non-AC water pump pulley on his '59 Tbird right now. I have asked him to let me know that, because he probably can use that present water pump pulley that is on there right now. IF that is the case, he has two choices, according to Steve at CAA. In the first picture of their instructions, of the water pump pulley, spacer and fan blade, they show what I understand is a non-AC single groove water pump pulley, spacer and fan. Down in the second picture showing that set up with belts in place, they show a picture with that large, rear pulley and belt, and a smaller pulley and belt in front of it.

Here is what Steve told me in email as to how they used that OEM single groove non-AC pulley for this conversion. I guess they could not find a 3 groove Ford water pump pulley at the time, did some research and found this. They found a GM (Chevy) water pump pulley that slips onto the front of that OEM single pulley water pump pulley! You’ll need to make sure the water pump pulley presently on the car (a large single groove pulley) matches the one pictured in the beginning of the installation instructions. I believe they had a couple different styles around that time period but if theirs matches the instructions they simply just need to purchase a standard GM small block short water pump 2 groove pulley. You’ll add this new pulley to the original which will now make 3 grooves and you should be good to go. Apparently, the inside of that Chevy 2 groove pulley slips over the head of the Ford single groove pulley and gives you the correct spacing and alignment for their Perfect Fit set up.. Now you have 3 belt grooves, but you only use the front and the back. The only reason for using the Chevy pulley is to get the proper spacing and alignment. The CAA Part # for that Chevy pulley is 7-222 and costs $69...

It is entirely possible that the B8A-8509-F will give you the exact spacing and alignment you will need to make their system work properly. OR, you will not be able to use it, and will have to have them ship you the 7-222 Chevy 2 groove pulley to make it all work correctly... IF the latter is the case, you have an expensive pulley you may not need. However, it is the only one in captivity, that I have been able to find and if someone has a busted B8A-8509-F on an OEM AC equipped '58-'59 Tbird, you will have one to sell....

Bill should have, unless someone has changed it out, a big single belt pulley, perhaps a spacer, and a four bladed fan for non-AC 352's... If so, then you should be able to go the Chevy 7-222 route and make it all work... Which, from what I understand from Steve, is what they did to make it work for them. I gather, when they developed this aftermarket system, they could not find the OEM Ford 3 groove water pump pulley either. AND... they found that Chevy 500 2 groove pulley that worked and now stock Chevy 7-222's for this purpose because they know that the Ford version is like gold and hard to find... I hope I have not confused you..

Here is a link to the water pump/pulley info in the TRL. You will see a better pic of my dual groove OEM AC set up, plus you will see a pic on the left, after that, of what a 58-59 single groove water pump pulley looks like, and the C0AE-8509-A cast triple-sheave pulley that was introduced in 1960 looks like.

http://squarebirds.org/images_WaterPumpEtc/index.htm

For those of you who would like to see the CAA "Perfect Fit" installation instructions, here they are.

http://http://squarebirds.org/SB/CAA-PerfectFitAC-6-136 INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS 7-27-16.doc
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Last edited by YellowRose : 04-26-2017 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 04-27-2017, 01:59 AM
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Just a quick note to say thanks again to our "bloodhound" Ray for his diligent work in finding me the part. He amazes me with the way he sticks at it... FBI could use you Ray! You are the man.

Once i have both air cons fitted to both cars I will provides pics and updates to all.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:25 AM
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Thanks Bill (and Ray) - look forward to the install pics and good luck on the install.

As info......

My '60 was originally non A/C.
Had the single water pump pulley, 2V crank pulley and has PS



I removed the OEM 1V add on pulley from the damper and added a C1AE 6312-A 2V pulley to the damper for a total of 3 sheaves on the crank. The C1AE (probably for the '61 Tbird could have been the wrong pulley - book calls for 6A312).


Added the 3V water pump pulley and kept original belt config. Installed the new condenser which is just a simple bolt in - no mods.
Everything was A-ok.


Just because there is an empty sheave that does not mean it needs a belt. I decided to use the middle sheave on the water pump for the power steering. This destroyed the damper because the belts were moving at different speeds - all has to do with the diameter of the pulleys etc. At this point I had also added the flex fan from the 80's Ford 400 ci engine.



Of course the OEM fan spacer will not fit on the nub (pilot) on the COAE 8509-A A/C pulley so you need to find the correct one or buy the aftermarket flex-a-lite spacer.

OEM water pump pilot diameter .625


The fan is the same of course so fits right on the pilot.


The ID of the 6509 pulley fits right over the water pump pilot.


But you are left with a 1.0 OD pilot for the fan.


Which is where the Flex-a-lite spacer fits. It has a 1.0 ID and .625 pilot for the fan.


After removing the PS belt from the center WP sheave and putting things back to original config (Oh and replacing the Damper - thanks Carl) I think I would have been OK at this point adding the A/C compressor belt. There would just not be a belt on the center sheave of the water pump pulley (probably not a big deal).

But - because I am a glutton for punishment I added the 40A generator with the 2V pulley (think the 40A generator is from the Ford commercial truck series).




This displaces the power steering belt and requires you to move it to the outer sheave on the crank which is where the A/C belt should go if using the 2V pulley on the water pump. BUT - I found other info for the 3V water pump pulley so figured it was not a big deal. HOWEVER - you will need to find a COAE 3A7333-A pulley for the PS pump and still use small washers to give perfect belt alignment. Figured the A/C belt is only driven off the water pump pulley when using the 3A7333 pulley.




Was using this pic as reference for that info - the A/C belt only goes to the water pump. I doubted seriously there was anyone else crazy enough to try and add the factory components to a non A/C car so figured this was how it came from the factory.
Hard to tell if there is a belt on the center sheave of the water pump pulley. Guess that's how I will do mine unless something goes FUBAR then I'll just leave the center sheave on the WP empty and use the 1V pulley on the generator with the belts back to the'58-59 config.



I'm really tired of fooling with it. Would have been much better off to go the CAA route like Bill. I just want to goooooo.



Eric
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  #10  
Old 05-01-2017, 04:24 AM
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Wow Eric, I'm giddy reading that, but as usual you did a fantastic job. Lets hope the installs go nice and easy, and from what I can see of the CAA system would not surprise me...
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