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  #21  
Old 01-31-2017, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
There are many ways to skin this cat. We know of a few ways to add more boost than an 8" dual diaphragm but none of them are offered at a reasonable in COST.
"...at a reasonable cost" is of utmost importance, otherwise the system can be an electric or power steering pressure booster.

I'm for any system that works well and I'm excited to see your new bracket and booster mounted and working on your Squarebird. More boost is a good thing in my book as well.

The truth is, and this isn't an excuse, we rarely have panic stops so we rarely use the full capability of our boosters. That's where Dkheld is coming from. He is happy using a booster that was designed for drum brakes and says it works just fine on Granada calipers. Truth be told, my '59 Galaxie came with manual brakes (as did millions of full size cars of the day) and folks were good with that.

In my opinion, there is only one supplier who sells a decent bolt-on system that works in a Squarebird BUT his price is too high. Regardless, some of our members who don't fabricate are happy to buy it.

We can buy an 8" dual-diaphragm with a one inch bore M/C AND a combination proportioning valve for $200 but it doesn't come with a firewall bracket. That's the problem, of which there are two possible practical solutions but both involve some fabrication: Make your own bracket (we have the drawings and two examples in service right now) OR, if your 'bird came with a firewall bracket, simply make two extension tubes and re-use it.

So again, I'm excited to see your large booster in action. Take lots of clear pictures of the setup when you get it working. Yes, it needs to be working. We went through many revisions on our bracket just to use the dual-8". We found, the more offset built into the bracket the more 'flex' and spongy-feel in the brake pedal.

Yes, ratios are a concern when designing your bracket but that also depends on two additional factors; the bore size of the M/C and the amount of booster assist. There is such a thing as, too much assist if stopping cannot be smooth and controlled under normal driving conditions. Some factory Chryslers fall into this category, in my opinion. The brake pedal was touchy and difficult to control. I hope that's a different discussion.

I use the dual-8" on Granada and on S-10 calipers in my full size Fords. They will put you through the windshield much the same as the brake performance of any modern car. - Dave
Just curious, do you have a link to the SB bolt on that
you think is designed well? Always looking for hints.......

Being in NJ (high density population) and combining
the fact that 30% of people are not even looking at
the road these days, I hope to being able to stop in
in at least a highly aggressive fashion. I also prefer
highly boosted, extremely short travel brakes.

I've tried this F350 dual 9" and accompanying MC on
one of my 79 broncos and was not happy with it at all.
(that rig ended up getting 70 Linc HB and works as good
or better than a modern car or truck). Hoping this setup
proves more than just adequate.

But due to my preference of how I like brake feel, I suspect
I will not be describing this setup as "spectacular". I will
try to give it my best assessment from the eyes of others
though.

Also, what is your feeling on a combination valve vs a
proportioning valve? I know the 70's ford trucks have the
delay (metering valve) built into them to allow the drums
to catch up with the disks. Not sure if this was just a truck
thing, as the 80's fox body proportioning valve did away
with the metering part.
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Last edited by OX1 : 01-31-2017 at 09:23 AM.
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  #22  
Old 01-31-2017, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewalkman View Post
I was wondering what that sink drain arrangement was down there. I take it you have aftermarket CC?


Yep - an old Sears unit - made by Dana Corp IIRC. "Back when" - Sears used to have an outlet near my house and I would stop in from time to time. Once they had 4-5 of them discontinued & CHEAP - like $20.Bought them all. Had one on an MGB and a Nissan 4x4 truck - worked perfect. Installed one on a 2wd Nissan truck and it would work but was so sensitive that it would jerk your head back when it accelerated. Turned the sensitivity all the way down it that fixed the jerking issue but it wouldn't hold a very constant speed on hills. Tried different levers on the accel shaft plus other stuff but never would work like the other two.

They had 2 models - one that created it's own vac and one that used engine vac from the car. Used one on the Tbird that uses engine vac. Works pretty well but if it needs to accelerate more than once or twice in a short period it runs out of vac pressure. Was planning on adding a reserve tank behind the pass fender like the one for the brake on the driver side. That's about the time the rear main seal failed and I had to swap engines (which led to manifold problems, and fuel pump problems and fuel tank problems and adding A/C problems and a busted radiator and tire problems and and )

So obviously I never got back to it.

Found an old pic of it mounted above the heater on the firewall.




Henry - this is where I bought my Combo valve years ago - they were $100 back then - gone up a bit. Bet you can find the same thing cheaper elsewhere.
http://www.mpbrakes.com/accessories/...ration-vl3360k

Geez - you guys in NJ have 70% of the people actually looking at the road?
Lucky you!
it's more like 70% of the people NOT looking at the road around here.

Eric
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  #23  
Old 01-31-2017, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OX1 View Post
Just curious, do you have a link to the SB bolt on that you think is designed well?..
No, I think the firewall bracket is designed properly. Nobody else offers one that fits a SB. The rest of the kit is MBM fare, readily available at more attractive prices. Here is the link:
http://www.abspowerbrake.com/maincatalog_frameset.html kit #9787 Sorry, no prices. Don't get me going. When you call, depending on who you get, the price is different. Just say'n. But they have a monopoly on that bracket and there aren't enough Squarebirds out there for anyone else to make them. Believe me, we've tried.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OX1 View Post
...30% of people are not even looking at
the road these days, I hope to being able to stop in at least a highly aggressive fashion...
Yes, if you drive in competition with today's traffic of small cars, ALL with disk brakes.
Since "personal preference" can mean many things I will say, factory drum brakes (either manual or power) on a SB were ok when all the cars had drums but by today's standard they are crap. Those of us who retrofit to disks using either Scarebird brackets or Granada spindles are VERY happy. In fact so happy, nobody ever mentioned reverting back to 'original' because the difference is profound. Spectacular? No, but many times better than drum-performance. This brake pedal is not touchy, it has full travel and it will lock the wheels or produce a controlled stop. That's my kind of brake. Want less stroke? Since it's your system you are welcome to use a 1-1/8" master cylinder or change the pedal ratio. The pedal will feel harder but the stroke will be shorter. We tried that as well and didn't like it so I always recommend a one inch bore M/C. Truth is, calipers don't retract so they require less flow than the wheel cylinders they replaced. Less flow allows smaller (and more powerful) M/C bores for the same pedal stroke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OX1 View Post
Also, what is your feeling on a combination valve vs a proportioning valve? I know the 70's ford trucks have the delay (metering valve) built into them to allow the drums to catch up with the disks..
You just struck a nerve because some places are advising customers to omit the valve altogether. When the drums need adjustment, this will rear its ugly head. I will always advocate for using a combination proportioning valve because it does these important functions:
  • Ties the front and rear circuits together mechanically, using a piston between them.
  • Meters, meaning it applies rear brakes first, then disk. This is most useful in loose gravel, wet leaves, snow, etc., for maintaining steering while braking.
  • Proportions the rear brake, reducing pressure to the rear wheel cylinders.
  • Stops the loss of brake fluid if a line ruptures. The piston is shoved over by the 'pressure side' to shut off the ruptured side.
  • Turns on an 'emergency' idiot light when the center piston shifts to either side.
If the rear wheels stop too hard, simply replace with 3/4" wheel cylinders.
MBM offers two combination valves at the same money. One is a Ford-style and the other is a GM-style. I like the GM-style because the mounting holes are part of the casting, not an add-on bracket. Both valves have clear, unrestricted ports to the front (caliper) system because disk brakes require a lot more pressure than wheel cylinders. - Dave
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  #24  
Old 02-01-2017, 11:04 PM
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Starting fabbing up the booster bracket, in cardboard
anyway





Using 1/4 plate for everything, hoping to
reduce/eliminate any flex in the bracket at
least.

Got to use my 100 year old lathe, first
time I've done a part that was offset in
the chuck.

Since the plate for firewall is
not going to change no matter what else
I come up with, decided to start on it.
Not going to drill mount holes until I have
stock MC off for an accurate template.





Can't do much more until booster/MC arrives.
Ordered it from Orielly's online (closest store
is Conn) as my local chains could not get it
and neither amazon nor rock auto are lifetime
warantee. Not bad @ $144 shipped including
core cost.
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  #25  
Old 02-06-2017, 11:59 PM
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Got the F350 booster/master. Definitely larger
than the 9" GM booster my buddy gave me.
But mostly, it is longer front to back, which
does nothing but make it harder to install.

Anyway, it fits, but will be tight.









Clearances are tight......









After measuring for hours, I came up with a Fulcrum
bracket that will be 4.25/2.25 or 1.88 ratio, making
my pedal ratio 6.23/1.88 or 3.31. Stock with the
bracket I had, was 2.88.
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  #26  
Old 02-07-2017, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OX1 View Post
...Anyway, it fits, but will be tight. ...After measuring for hours, I came up with a Fulcrum
bracket that will be 4.25/2.25 or 1.88 ratio, making
my pedal ratio 6.23/1.88 or 3.31. Stock with the
bracket I had, was 2.88.
Now, that is wonderful news. Let's talk about cost:
Can you estimate the cost of:
  • The firewall bracket including steel and welding?
  • The brake pedal rod including the adjustment portion?
  • All the necessary hardware for the booster/master setup?
Will you need to cut or alter the firewall?

And finally, add the expense of the whole firewall assembly including combination proportioning valve, booster and M/C to the cost of your fabrications. Got a guesstimate? - Dave
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  #27  
Old 02-07-2017, 11:18 AM
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I make all my own brackets. I have never had a
part laser cut. What did it cost for Howard to have
his made?

I'm going to say $25 per plate for flat
laser cut plates? Could put tabs in side plates
to fit in booster/firewall plates, to keep brackets
"square" during welding.

4 plates -$100
Welding -$50

Theoretically, you could have side plates bent
90 degrees on either end so they bolt to firewall
and booster. Then you only have to weld lower
end of fulcrum setup.

4 plates , no welding required -$200

Need two plates for fulcrum.

2 plates - $50

Fulcrum will need spacer tubes. This one
for pivot on bottom -$10

https://www.mcmaster.com/mvb/library...92415a141l.gif

and spacers for lateral change of booster
rod to brake pedal rod (May need to cut
in half each one)

https://www.mcmaster.com/mvb/library...92415a120l.gif

Qty 2 @ $7 each
Weld lower end of fulcrum -$25

The brake pedal rod I am using is from the SSB kit I
already had. If I had to make one ,
I would get a long rod 80+ booster from junkyard
and cut off booster rod and thread it. Use
a long coupling nut with locknuts or tac weld.

Used booster $15-25??

Us you choice of solid female threaded rod end
from McMasterr-Carr to fulcrum end.

https://images1.mcmaster.com/mvB/con...ver=1314262224

Qty 1 - 15$

Booster end is designed to connect to a
factory fulcrum setup, so hole is small,
maybe 1/4 inch, not like you typical
3/4ish inch hole that normally connects
to most brake pedals.

Cost of booster mod - $0

Booster/MC was $145 shipped.

Your choice of comb valve.
Used ford truck valve is $30-50
New valve that most use is $60?

Brake line material and fittings?

So looking at about $550-600?


Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
Now, that is wonderful news. Let's talk about cost:
Can you estimate the cost of:
  • The firewall bracket including steel and welding?
  • The brake pedal rod including the adjustment portion?
  • All the necessary hardware for the booster/master setup?
Will you need to cut or alter the firewall?

And finally, add the expense of the whole firewall assembly including combination proportioning valve, booster and M/C to the cost of your fabrications. Got a guesstimate? - Dave
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  #28  
Old 02-07-2017, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OX1 View Post
I make all my own brackets. I have never had a part laser cut. What did it cost for Howard to have his made?..
I'm not sure whether Howard had his water-jet cut or laser. I know he said a CNC machine bent his side pieces.

Howard made two sets and had them both (hexavalent) chrome plated. Most of the engine compartment parts on his 'Betsy' are chrome plated.

Howard used one set and Ray Clark is using the other.
Howard lives in Canada, next to Niagara Falls, so he may have had some work done in NY state.

Both are using dual-diaphragm 8" boosters and combination proportioning valves. - Dave
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  #29  
Old 02-08-2017, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
I'm not sure whether Howard had his water-jet cut or laser. I know he said a CNC machine bent his side pieces.

Howard made two sets and had them both (hexavalent) chrome plated. Most of the engine compartment parts on his 'Betsy' are chrome plated.

Howard used one set and Ray Clark is using the other.
Howard lives in Canada, next to Niagara Falls, so he may have had some work done in NY state.

Both are using dual-diaphragm 8" boosters and combination proportioning valves. - Dave
I looked around a little and it seems my estimates
for brackets may be a bit low. Looks like minimum
$60-100 just for setup (waterjet). Does seem
they base it on run time after that, or inches cut and
these brackets should not take more than 15 minutes for
all of them I suspect.

Anyway, fabricated the 4 main bracket plates. Still
need to drill some holes for "pin" access in bracket
side plates, once I figure out exact spacing of
fulcrum setup. I'd say they cost me about $15
in steel...........

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Old 02-09-2017, 07:06 PM
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Got the access holes done in the side plates
and tac welded it all together.




Final clearances. I set it closer to inner
fender than valve cover, figured fender
should not be moving much. Valve cover
not going to ever come off with moving
booster out of way though.




Plenty of clearance for shift linkage



MC should be far enough away from
exh manifold, but I might make a heat
shield anyway.



Last check is the hood. Inner support
seemed close to MC cap. Tried the old
grease test, but it looks OK.



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