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  #11  
Old 01-05-2017, 12:05 PM
OX1 OX1 is offline
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Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
Let me know how that works out for you.
Of the options you named, are any converted to run on modern liquids?
When I built my Y-Block I knew a 351W engine would be far cheaper to build but I bit the bullet and did the overhaul anyway. I love the sound of a Y but it is only 300 cubes and not expected to perform miracles in a Galaxie. Looking back, I doubt I would do it again because the engine is all cast iron, the center exhaust ports are still next to each other and the lifters will always be solid. I did a ton of oil modifications, match-weighed piston/rod assemblies, balanced the crankshaft, retimed the camshaft, added a true roller timing set, and much more. In retrospect, I should have used the 351W and AOD. - Dave
Well, you said pistons were available, just custom and ungodly $$$. The rest (bearings, rings, cam, chain, gaskets, oil pump) seem to be available.

Obviously you have to be real careful on who you let machine block due to angled bores. That might be the hardest part in finding that one right guy.

Anyway, that 460 I have started life as an 83, so ready for even reg unleaded I suspect. Would probably bump compression into the mid 9's and run 93 with it, if/ever.
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  #12  
Old 01-05-2017, 12:09 PM
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an oil pump for a 430, that would help too.
This kit has a melling oil pump, can't be too tough to get by itself, but I didn't really look that hard.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lincoln-430-...-/151452050592

Not sure if this is really a 430 thermostat (or the one you were thinking of), but that is what it says

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Shop/P...ing/122-4.html

This guy claims do not replace the block thermostats, only water diverters, Comments??

http://bigfancycar.blogspot.com/2014...gine-shop.html

Post on here claims it is regularly done and no reported problems.
In my case, this car does not go out under 60 degrees ever.
Not too worried about warm up time if that is all they do.

http://ford-mel-engine.com/viewtopic.php?f=75&p=5951

After reading it again, it appears after 63, Ford didn't even use
the head thermostats.

Anyway, this is why I post questions, many times.
These threads always snowball, forcing me to do
more research and learn.
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  #13  
Old 01-05-2017, 01:45 PM
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I've rebuilt 3-430's over the years and never had a problem finding parts. Most difficult were rocker arm shafts, camshafts, and cam bearings. These have all become available new in the past 5 years. Still elusive is the oil pump that has provisions for the crankcase mounted vacuum pump for the wipers. Melling has a pump available without this feature as previously noted. The oil/vacuum pump unit can be rebuilt/repaired if one has the knowledge/resources. The block thermostats are out there, but hard to find. They are not necessary but can be used for a period correct restoration. Machine work on the cylinder walls requires someone with experience on these or the 409. After a boring operation, the bowl (combustion chamber) must be contoured to transition to the new cylinder walls. My biggest challenge on the rebuilds was finding a good ring expander to accommodate the angled cylinders and combustion chamber.
Carl
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  #14  
Old 01-05-2017, 03:13 PM
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Carl, where do you source 430 domed pistons?

Henry, you're beginning to find out how hard this engine is to properly overhaul. Name-brand parts MUST be available for a quality overhaul, and why not? Other engines have great support.

Unfortunately, the 430 is too rare for vendors to dedicate replacement parts shelf space. Every year, fewer are rebuilt.

The short block kit you show is for a 350 Chevy. They have a disclaimer, "Engine kit image is for illustrative purposes only." For SIX HUNDRED bucks, they should show correct parts. These are not, and If I lived in Australia I would NOT take the chance. All these parts should normally cost half and then you are at their mercy regarding brands.

Don't feel bad, 430 block thermostats cannot be found anywhere. No, the 'universal thermostat' you show will not work in a 430. Diverters are supposed to upset the coolant flow to make better contact with cylinder walls. They do not regulate engine heat. When original thermostats go bad the only choice is to do without. That's why it's widely accepted.

"Domed pistons for the 430 MEL are 'custom made' only."
Make no mistake, this doesn't mean they are available. It means, IF you can find a piston maker, he must have lead time to cast 430 domed pistons. Again, four are RH and four are LH. They must be large enough to fit a newly bored block. What's the cost? Contact the foundry.

Building a 430 is so daunting, most rebuilders 'settle' for common flat top pistons that totally ruin the original compression ratio. Egge.com was a popular supplier of wrong parts that 'work' but now they don't touch 430s. My observation is, most 'rebuilt' 430 engines get sold, then the new owners ask why 400-HP just isn't there.

I normally don't refer our members to another board but in your case, CLICK HERE. I wish my suggestions were more favorable but I am looking out for your best interest by steering you in the right direction. I still stick to my prior posts/advice. Bottom line is, it's your money and your car to do with what you please. Good luck. - Dave
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  #15  
Old 01-05-2017, 05:17 PM
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Dave,
One rebuild had to have one cyl sleeved, the other cyls had no taper, very little wear, so std used pistons reinstalled plus another good used selected for the sleeved cylinder. One rebuild was using the egge set, and the other was using some old stock Jahns pistons with the ledge. No real drama just some diligent searching.
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  #16  
Old 01-05-2017, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
Henry, you're beginning to find out how hard this engine is to properly overhaul.
HAHA!! I'm still trying to figure out how I got from a midrange stumble to needing a total rebuild??

Just stumbled on this.

"Important News: For those of you who absolutely must have the "WEDGE" design -
We are currently working to develop and manufacture the correct piston design in .000 , .020, and .040
It's about 4 months out from delivery should everything go well. Watch this listing for more news.
Expect cost to be about $1000 per set."

We'll see I guess. If it pans out, might buy a set just to have them.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1958-1959-19...1VvU5m&vxp=mtr
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  #17  
Old 01-06-2017, 01:40 AM
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Henry, that find is rare, indeed. Jump on it but don't get the wrong size. If you're not familiar with how this works, here's the procedure:
Bring your block to the engine machine shop who will do the boring. Ask them to measure the bores so you know which size pistons to buy.

This is important... Buy the pistons first, then let the machine shop bore and hone your cylinders to the size of the new pistons. At Ford, we BRUSH our bores to the size of the pistons after honing.

I can't stress enough about the importance of cylinder cross-hatch. A smooth bore is an oil burner because rings hydroplane over the oil film. Crosshatch acts like grooves in the road on a rainy day. A better ring seal is formed and oil is controlled. Honing leaves sharp edges. Brushing will smooth those edges and it dramatically reduces break-in. BTW, we use Moly rings at Ford. I suggest you use them too.

Find out what alloy the new pistons will be made from. I'm hoping they will be hypereutectic (which are still cast pistons).

Carl, I cannot imagine pounding sleeves into a bore that resembles a balogna sliced on an angle. At Ford, we heat our sleeves before cramming them into aluminum blocks. We don't have much time before the aluminum block sucks all the heat away from the sleeve so it's a quick 'one shot' deal with no second chance. The difference is, our blocks are cut square. - Dave
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  #18  
Old 01-06-2017, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
Henry, that find is rare, indeed. Jump on it but don't get the wrong size.
If I had to do it, I would probably just get a stroker shortblock. I can't imagine a lower compression,
wrong piston, incorrect quench, 545 cube engine would be all that much less HP over a moderately
worn out (or not 100% factory correct rebuild) 430.

These pistons do look like they have some "step" in them, but that may just be the highest compression,
almost dome-like, that would be way too high for pump gas.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEL-Mercury-...RYSdau&vxp=mtr

I'm not against paying "way too much" to have certain things done sometimes.
Occasionally, it is worth it to pay a lot for a certain guys experience, and I'm fine with that.
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Old 01-06-2017, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
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Ford's 430 MEL engine was the only block with the decks milled on an angle. No other Ford engine before or since used that design. Oddly enough, the Chevy 409 was in the exact same boat. I believe the Engine Engineers went to the same schools, here in Detroit but it was an inferior design and quickly dropped by both corporations.
FE engines and MEL engines were worlds apart and NOT cut from the same anything. - Dave
I and perhaps others are interested in your understanding of in what manor the combustion chamber and resulting engineering requirements is of an "inferior design", to what? And please don't say "if it were so good everybody would be doing it", and also whether that actually explains why it was (keep it period) not a more commonly adopted design in this country?

As far as the last statement, well, maybe I should have said: with "accurate" observation, or if "experienced" working on (particularly machining), or "truly" (vs. vaguely) familiar ...........

Scott.
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  #20  
Old 01-06-2017, 12:59 PM
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I and perhaps others are interested in your understanding of in what manor the combustion chamber and resulting engineering requirements is of an "inferior design", to what?...
I am not an Engine Engineer so I leave that part to the fine men and women who actually ARE (like my sister). Even so, Engine Engineers do make mistakes. Ford's first attempt at producing an overhead valve engine was the Y-Block, in 1954. The engine had many design flaws and it was quickly replaced by the FE. That doesn't mean Ford stopped producing the Y, because tooling and development costs are sky-high. FEs were quickly designed and installed in 1958 T-birds while trucks still used the 'Y' through 1964. The 312 'Y' was Ford's Police Interceptor engine in '57 but in '58, the FE suddenly became Ford's Police Interceptor because it was a superior engine, by Ford's standards, not by mine.

Along these same lines, Ford engineered, produced, then abandoned the MEL engines with tapered decks. If the design were superior, Moody would not have dropped his winning Bulldozer in favor of the smaller FE. Ford would have also made more displacement choices with the same design, but no. 430 cubes sounds great but Ford invested their engineering changes into the FE (with many upgrades and displacement choices), not the MEL. To answer your question directly, I compare the 430 design against all other Ford engine designs. Then I let the industry's history speak for itself in a test of time.

So then, Ford had two obsolete engines, the 'Y' and the MEL. Tooling for the Y went from Dearborn Engine Plant to Australia and South America. Tooling for the MEL simply died. DEP produced millions of FEs, and Ford installed them in ALL car and truck lines.

Yes, Ford developed the FE to produce more HP than the MEL, mostly because the engine design was superior. This is evidenced in both GM and Ford by the fact that the ten-degree deck engine was never produced again and very few vendors support them.

One simple engine advancement developed thinner rings set closer to the piston's top, ala Mustang SBF pistons (and all modern engines). That's impossible to achieve in a slant bore design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OX1 View Post
If I had to do it, I would probably just get a stroker shortblock. I can't imagine a lower compression,
wrong piston, incorrect quench, 545 cube engine would be all that much less HP over a moderately worn out (or not 100% factory correct rebuild) 430.

These pistons do look like they have some "step" in them, but that may just be the highest compression, almost dome-like, that would be way too high for pump gas...
A 'stroker' is not 'factory correct' but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Be very cautious with factory designs of the day because they were designed for liquids that are no longer available. That makes a '100% factory correct' engine useless for today's common service.

93-octane gasohol HAS the power to produce 500-HP. It's in there but your engine must unleash it. EPA and CAFE standards of the day forced Ford to DE-tune 460s. For example, factory 460 engines have their cam advanced 15 degrees. By correcting this simple cam/crank timing, the 460 goes from being a real 'dog' to waking up with new-found ponies, using the exact same timing set and burning the same fuel.

ANY engine designed to run gasoline must be altered if you burn gasohol (pump gas). That means serious head work, including stainless valves and hardened exhaust valve seats, regardless of compression ratios, piston design or quench. I did it with my 'Y' and you can do it with your MEL but both engines end up still being cast iron with lots of investment but very little resale value. A used set of aluminum heads (like for an FE) fetch a grand IF you can find a set. - Dave
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