Engine starts, misses and stops... ?

[Rock&Roll Firebird]

How do I 'put my timing marks on TDC'? Can I find it in any section of the shop manual?

[sidewalkman]

How do I 'put my timing marks on TDC'? Can I find it in any section of the shop manual?

TDC - Top Dead Center is done by rotating the engine over until the mark on the crank pulley / harmonic balancer lines up with the TDC timing mark. It's what you measure the timing advance retard against.

Put a ratchet on the crank pulley and rotate it by hand.

[Rock&Roll Firebird]

So, just got from the garage. Here are the photos of the distributor. Hopefully they are something to work with. Could not make the spark test sofar - unfortunately my fairly new starter's anchor from the last year mechanicaly just broke. Anyway here they are...

[Rock&Roll Firebird]

and three more...

[jopizz]

Those pictures don't mean much. You need to rotate the crank one more time to get the rotor at #1 on the distributor. It's pointing at #6 right now. It appears to me that timing isn't your problem since you've had the car running recently. I can't tell if your points are dirty so just clean them anyway. Until you do a spark test you can't eliminate the coil or condenser as a problem unless you just replace them.

John

[Rock&Roll Firebird]

Those pictures don't mean much. You need to rotate the crank one more time to get the rotor at #1 on the distributor. It's pointing at #6 right now. It appears to me that timing isn't your problem since you've had the car running recently. I can't tell if your points are dirty so just clean them anyway. Until you do a spark test you can't eliminate the coil or condenser as a problem unless you just replace them.

John

I will put back the repaired starter and make the spark test right away. Seems to me that the coil and condenser are not that expensive and I even might get them localy - only need to know their parametres. Not sure what parametres has the coil to watch for. Any idea what capacity and voltage has the condenser?

[jopizz]

Any 12V coil that is designed to be used with an external resistor will work. It should say it on the coil. The condenser needs to fit into the distributor and have a wire long enough to reach the points. Any 12V condenser should work as long as it's the correct size.

John

[Tbird1044]

Good reminder, that if you install a Pertronix electronic ignition and remove the resistor wire, you should change the coil also.

Nyles

[Rock&Roll Firebird]

So, the adventure continues:

a) replaced the coil
b) cleaned the points
c) did the coil test - getting lot of quick sparks, not very loud though
d) tested for the spark on every spark plug vire - getting weaker sparks once per spin on every wire

Tested with the gas bottle setup, choke slightly openned (per advice), repeatedly cranked - no startup.

Tried to cover the carb tower with hands while cranking, the choke still slightly openned - started to catch, ended with backfire from the carb (I guess from the excesive fuel in the carb system from the previous cranking attempts).

Closed the choke completely, the engine started. Let it idle only for a while, but this is a good sign I guess.

But let me ask you - can a slightly openned choke (about 1cm) on a cold engine make that difference (weather rather cold and rainy)? Not saying that was the cause and did not test neither warmed engine nor higher rpm operation but closing the choke completely seemed to me made the difference on starting the engine. Would like to hear your opinions on this. Thank you.

PS: will continue tomorrow and write some more. seems the reason for putting the el. fuel pump by previous owner starts to occur - after removing the gas bottle setup my new fuel pump could not suck the fuel from the gas tank and push it any further. maybe it might be sucking air somewhere on the line from the gas tank. will concentrate on that one tomorrow.

[jopizz]

What is the temperature where you live. If it's fairly cool then the choke should be closed on startup. It will open up slightly when the car starts. If it starts when closed then that's where it needs to be.

John

[scumdog]

So, the adventure continues:

a) replaced the coil
b) cleaned the points
c) did the coil test - getting lot of quick sparks, not very loud though
d) tested for the spark on every spark plug vire - getting weaker sparks once per spin on every wire

Tested with the gas bottle setup, choke slightly openned (per advice), repeatedly cranked - no startup.

Tried to cover the carb tower with hands while cranking, the choke still slightly openned - started to catch, ended with backfire from the carb (I guess from the excesive fuel in the carb system from the previous cranking attempts).

Closed the choke completely, the engine started. Let it idle only for a while, but this is a good sign I guess.

But let me ask you - can a slightly openned choke (about 1cm) on a cold engine make that difference (weather rather cold and rainy)? Not saying that was the cause and did not test neither warmed engine nor higher rpm operation but closing the choke completely seemed to me made the difference on starting the engine. Would like to hear your opinions on this. Thank you.

PS: will continue tomorrow and write some more. seems the reason for putting the el. fuel pump by previous owner starts to occur - after removing the gas bottle setup my new fuel pump could not suck the fuel from the gas tank and push it any further. maybe it might be sucking air somewhere on the line from the gas tank. will concentrate on that one tomorrow.

Even if the choke is not working if you push the gas-pedal 3 - 4 times it will put enough gas into the motor for it to fire up and run, even if for a few seconds.
That will let you know the motor CAN run and your issue is likley NOT to be ignition.
A backfire up through the carb generally indicates the mixture has gotten too lean - like if the choke isn't working properly and the motor is cold - or if the carb has run out of fuel.

[simplyconnected]

Ok, I saw the video, saw the picture of the damper pulley on TDC and I saw the distributor:

I'm going to stick my neck out here but...
It appears your distributor is too far advanced by one tooth.

At this position on the crank, the rotor should be pointing toward either #1 or #6 spark plug towers. The rotor appears to have passed #6 spark plug tower. Verify this please.

Remove the driver's side valve cover and make sure the pushrods are not bent. "Bump" the starter until #6 exhaust valve is closing and #6 intake valve is just beginning to open. Right then, when both rocker arms are dead level, look at your timing marks on the crankshaft AND notice your rotor should be pointed directly at #1 spark plug tower.

If the damper pulley is not at the timing mark, your timing chain is off by a tooth. If the distributor is not pointing at #1 spark plug tower, your distributor is off by a tooth. - Dave

[Rock&Roll Firebird]

Hello guys, time to celebrate! After several weeks of testing, hoping, taking apart and putting together we finally got into a happy end. Today's last portion of new parts seem to made the difference...

a) exchanged the distributor cap and rotor
b) installed the Pertronix contactless ignitor
c) installed the Pertronix Flamethrover coil
d) installed new set of NGK iridium spark plugs
e) removed the balast rezistor (not needed with the Pertronix setup)

And the result? I must say, I am truly amazed how smooth and cultivated operation the engine has now. It runs so quiet with not even one glitch you could fall asleep beside the car. And cranking? The warm engine starts immediately - within split of second! The engine operates almost like on a new car. Unbelieveable. I guess every part from above installed has it's influence to the present state. Maybe the contactless ignitor made the most difference, don't know. But that's not important I guees, as the parts weren't too expensive to exchange and the final result is far better than I expected.

So, I'm glad to know the ignition and the fuel systems are fully mapped and working. I can sleep well now and think about next parts on the Bird that need attention.

Thank you all for your valuable support here. I trully appreciate it.

[jopizz]

Glad to hear that your '59 is finally running well. You should have a much more reliable car with all the new parts and the solid state Petronix system.

John