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  #41  
Old 08-03-2016, 01:24 PM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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The referenced article from Flex-A-Lite is correct and should be followed for best results (no, I won't receive a check!).

The only really poor engineering of the cooling system in these cars is the lack of concern/effort for air motion thru the radiator imparted by mechanical means. This may be attributed to the lesser traffic congestion one experienced then vs. today, also, lengthy idle durations were not commonly practiced (costly, fouled plugs, etc.), and air conditioning, still at this point in time was not present in most vehicles, and yes, the car is more refined and tolerant today than in the past (but then, that's part of the character of old cars, right?) .

The missing engineering is an engine-driven fan with more blades able to move an increased air volume over the O.E. unit, and a proper executed fan shroud. Rigid-blade fans should be accompanied with a clutch unit or a flex-blade with the appropriate spacer for positioning (my preference).

Individuals and vehicles in extreme environments (both mother nature and/or vehicle condition & use) may require additional efforts, such as a supplemental electric pusher style fan (properly installed) to increase air flow, say, thru the condenser/heat exchanger when operating the A.C..

Also, this tread discuses oil coolers as a supplemental source to control engine temps. This is viable, but understand that you are directly addressing oil temperature, attempting to influence water temperature, as indicated. If your oil is toooo hot! (established with a gauge/instrument) then a cooler is in order, if not, over cooling the oil in an attempt to reduce coolant temps is a mistake for a number of reasons. Generally, these vehicles, used sparingly (both load & frequency), don't need any supplemental oil cooling, nor is it advised.

I feel the need, in an effort to ensure the accurate dissemination of information in this forum, to comment on some of the statements concerning oil temps & cooling.

Some of the oil, within the crankcase IS exposed to temperatures of 300°, even more, under certain circumstances, but, this is not necessarily the oil temperature as referenced/understood in communication of "whats your oil temp"? (This statement is also applicable to coolant temps in the water-jacket.) And, assuming (in all instances) that oil temps both rise faster and acquire a higher value (as typically indicated) than the water/coolant is questionable.

Also, minimal, if any, oil cooling would take place in the oil galleries (FE engine), if you consider the velocity and time element as the oil is routed, and also the proximity of the water/coolant, as referenced, which is to accomplish such.

Now, before someone blows-up! I maybe wrong in how I interpreted the reading, but maybe others did to? Either one, or both topics could be discussed with participation by others, at length, maybe a dedicated thread rather than hi-jacking this one?

Remember, we're all friends here, sharing information for the benefit of all! Scott.
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  #42  
Old 08-03-2016, 04:57 PM
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Another tip to help to keep your motor overheating in stop-go traffic is to put your transmission into neutral as you come to a stop at stop lights etc. and leave it in neutral until it's time to move off again.
That way your engine is not loaded up against the torque converter plus in neutral the engine can rev freely at a higher speed hence your mechanical fan is spinning faster.
I may have mentioned this in the past, if so I apologise.
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  #43  
Old 08-03-2016, 08:15 PM
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Auto manufacturers would MUCH RATHER use mechanical fans because sheet metal stampings are fast and cheap to produce plus, the dies are good for many decades of different engine setups. Why did they all change to electric?

FUEL ECONOMY sells cars when energy costs are high (aren't they always). Electric fans pay for themselves many times over just in fuel economy.

BTW, electric fans speed the heating process of your engine in winter (simply because they don't turn on) and they speed the cooling process because they are never engine-speed dependent.

I read some of those online sites re:electric fans. There wasn't much in the line of scientific data (thermal dynamics, fluid power and fuel economy). One site claimed the same radiator changes resistance to flow whether the fan pushes or pulls. They had no concept that vacuum flow is much harder to achieve than pressure-flow created by compressing air in a pusher fan.

I'm having a hard time understanding ekstrandt's logic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ekstrandt View Post
...I ran without shroud and it overheated at idle. A shroud without covering half the blades in depth overheated. Shroud covering blades over half car does not overheat...
...I have a hard time believing that the cars were not designed to idle for extended periods New York, San Francisco, Chicago and L.A. etc have always had traffic problems...
So, without a shroud your car overheats. But wait a minute...
Did your T-bird come with a shroud? Neither did my Galaxie or Customline. The Customline had a THREE_BLADE fan (both came with Y-Block V8s). Both cars will overheat in extended idle periods. So will my cousin's '57 Chevy, and every other car from that era. Historically, police cars and taxi cabs idled for extended periods because they must move at a moment's notice. They overheated too, more in Southern summers than Northern winters. Believe it.

Every electric motor creates heat commensurate upon the HP it produces. Without cooling the motor will cook. Electric fan motors are already in high heat PLUS their created heat. Yes they are designed to run in this environment which is why they cost so much.

The next step in cooling is the adoption of already-on-the-market 'electric water pumps' located in the radiator tank. Think of that for a minute. This is a great idea because coolant flow will not be dependent on engine speed and it will save even more fuel when the engine is cold. - Dave
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Last edited by simplyconnected : 08-03-2016 at 08:29 PM.
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  #44  
Old 08-04-2016, 07:33 AM
ekstrandt ekstrandt is offline
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Dave maybe we have a miscommunication here.

Here are my points :
1. At no time have I tried to tell anyone that engine driven fans are better/ efficient in comparison to electric. I have planned for the possibility of needing electric fans, air conditioning is being added soon (140 amp alternator installed and ready as per advice from this site) I have narrowed my fan down to this one if needed. Feedback on this choice is welcome.
https://webstore.spalusa.com/en-us/p...pksl-dual.aspx

2. You wrote "I read the article and I see it as helpful, mainly for this company to sell their products." I didn't see or feel that they were selling anything. The best part was the picture at the top of the page also the very first sentence "If you’re running a belt-driven fan, there are a few things you need to do in order to maximize the engine cooling that the fan can provide." My logic that you questioned below was simply this. If you follow the recommendation in the article you will see a improvement in the amount of air flow through the radiator. I had the time to try it three ways and see the results.

3. As for push vs pulling air I will resort to using your own logic What do modern cars do? I'm not saying there is only one way to do it as your pusher setup works fine.

4. Also I gave a reason why I believe the old cars overheat. The fuel in 1950- early 70's is different than modern fuels.

Again all I'm trying to communicate is if you are trying to improve airflow with a engine driven fan the recommendation's in the article from flex-a-lite have worked for me and match specs from modern-ish cars (1994 jeep and a 1998 sierra) I have around with engine driven fans.
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  #45  
Old 08-04-2016, 09:21 PM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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I believe the main reason the fan(s) (electric) is generally installed as a "draw-thru" (by the O.E.s & slowly learned after-market), with the appropriate shroud, is that it lends itself to have better air motion effect from a more even distribution across the radiator core, as compared to the typical "blow-thru" installation. In operation, the area behind the radiator, ahead of the fan, within the shroud, becomes a low pressure area, which mother nature then attempts to fill; hence air traverses thru the radiator core. This is why it is imperative to have proper fan to shroud relationship and to "fit" the shroud to cover as much of the radiators' core area, and seal against leakages about the shrouds' perimeter as much as possible; to create the maximum pressure drop possible.

To accomplish the similar effect in the blow-thru, would lead to rather complicated engineering endeavor consisting of an array of air veins & distribution ducting.

Also, remember that if the area ahead of the radiator is blocked with your complicated blow-tru engineering endeavor, you lose the "free" (o.k. it's not "free", if only due to "drag") air flow acquired when the vehicle is in motion. And this is an area where the manufactures have really increased efficiency in the newer vehicles. By designing better air flow around & thru the engine compartment, so as when the vehicle is in motion, a more efficient pressure-drop is created behind the radiator even without the fan(s) operating. Ever notice how infrequent the electric fan operates in you new car, when in motion (under normal operating conditions)?

But, relatively simple blow-tru fan installations as supplemental support and for intermittent use such as to cool the A.C. condenser when operating A.C., particularly in older vehicles, seems logical.

BTW. I don't believe modern vs. back-then fuels will have much/any effect under idling and low-speed conditions. Scott.

Last edited by pbf777 : 08-05-2016 at 10:49 AM.
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  #46  
Old 08-05-2016, 03:09 AM
Tbird1044 Tbird1044 is offline
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This thread has gotten a lot of attention, and that's probably expected since our old Birds have a tendancy to run hot.
I did purchase one of the expensive fan shrouds in an effort to maximize cooling. When I installed the shroud, the fan was totally located inside of the shroud. I bought a 1/2" spacer to replace the 1 1/4" spacer that is stock, and it positioned the fan pretty close to where it is recommended.
It does appear that the air flow is improved, however, still not optimal. The temperature differential across the radiator is about 35F which is pretty good. I'm still going to work on a few more things. I'll attach some picture to show where the fan is located using a 1/2" spacer. The spacer was from flex a lite and the part number is FLX-836. It took me a while to find the correct spacer. This may be some good information for anyone that bought an aftermarket shroud.
Nyles
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Last edited by Tbird1044 : 08-05-2016 at 01:37 PM.
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  #47  
Old 08-05-2016, 11:03 AM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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Which fan blade assy. are you using? Thank you, Scott.
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  #48  
Old 08-05-2016, 11:25 AM
Tbird1044 Tbird1044 is offline
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It is the stock 5 bladed fan that came on the cars with AC. I tried using a flex fan that I had, but couldn't get side clearance to the shroud. It may have been the wrong sized fan.
Nyles
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  #49  
Old 08-05-2016, 08:15 PM
Tbird1044 Tbird1044 is offline
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Went out and played a little more today with the cooling system. Topped off the coolant level and drove the car around for a while to see how hot it would get. With the AC on full, driving around the temp gauge went about 1/2 way. Pulled it in the garage and let it run for another 10 minutes with the AC still on and the temp went up between the M and P on the gauge. I checked the radiator temps with a temp gun and had about 196F on the coolant tank and radiator inlet and about 185F on the suction side of the radiator. The outside ambient temperature was 85F while I had the car running.
I'm going to drive the car for a while and see how it responds. I think my next step would be to go to a 6 bladed fan vs. the 5 blade that is currently on the car.
More to come.
Nyles
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  #50  
Old 08-06-2016, 09:54 PM
Yadkin Yadkin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbird1044 View Post
...if we go to an electric fan, you also need to convert and install a 100 amp alternator. It seems you can never just change ONE thing....
True dat. Because the 100 amp alternator is harder to turn, belt squeal may develop, and you may find it necessary to use larger pulleys or convert to a serpentine system. Then you need to feed the fan with a large fuse and use a 40 amp fuse to feed your ammeter or original fuse panel.Also, you'll need a controller for the fan...
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