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  #1  
Old 10-04-2013, 05:27 PM
63Tealbird 63Tealbird is offline
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Cool fuel injected FE

What kind of luck has anyone had with aftermarket fuel injection (Holley Edelbrock FAST) do not mind wireing 02 a d the like thank you. Jeff
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  #2  
Old 10-07-2013, 01:31 AM
BDASTRK
 
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I have built 3 different cars with aftermarket fuel injection and too be honest with you.............if your looking for better or easier starts and better fuel economy then go for it. If you are looking for bigger power...............its marginal especially with the old school motors.

Really what needs to happen to make it work well is Crank Trigger, Cam sensor, Knock Sensor, MAF sensor, O2 controller, Map Sensor. To just throw on a cheap system without all of these items dont expect a lot but a lighter wallet.

Dont get me wrong they are cool if done right but I am not overly impressed with the performance one gets even on a mild build motor............on a FE I think its a waste of money!
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  #3  
Old 10-07-2013, 05:49 AM
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simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
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The goal is to deliver 14.7:1 air-to-fuel ratio.
Without all the sensors the computer must rely strictly on O2 sensors in the exhaust. They only work when heated, so a lot of your injector 'decisions' are based on a blind 'canned' program, much the same as startup of your modern car in winter temps.

Believe me, if the big three could eliminate sensors, they would.

Air density changes dramatically with temperature and humidity shifts. That's why we need chokes. Modern cars don't have chokes but they measure air velocity and density. That takes care of temperature and altitude. Finally, O2 sensors report how rich the mixture burned. So, your computer is constantly hunting for and adjusting to meet 14.7:1 while you drive. Take the car from Colorado to sea level and it still operates very well all along the way. Not so with carbureted engines.

These companies spent hundreds of millions on engine engineering, to meet EPA and mileage standards. The best and cheapest way to get what you're looking for is to use a modern, well established engine. You can pick up a cheap rust bucket junker, pull the drivetrain, computer and harnesses out, overhaul the engine and stick it in your classic. Adjustment tweaks happen with the press of a computer key, if necessary.

Otherwise if you cruise, appreciate your classic engine for what it is but change it to be safe and to run on modern fuels and lubricants. - Dave
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  #4  
Old 10-08-2013, 02:00 AM
BDASTRK
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
The goal is to deliver 14.7:1 air-to-fuel ratio.
Without all the sensors the computer must rely strictly on O2 sensors in the exhaust. They only work when heated, so a lot of your injector 'decisions' are based on a blind 'canned' program, much the same as startup of your modern car in winter temps.

Believe me, if the big three could eliminate sensors, they would.

Air density changes dramatically with temperature and humidity shifts. That's why we need chokes. Modern cars don't have chokes but they measure air velocity and density. That takes care of temperature and altitude. Finally, O2 sensors report how rich the mixture burned. So, your computer is constantly hunting for and adjusting to meet 14.7:1 while you drive. Take the car from Colorado to sea level and it still operates very well all along the way. Not so with carbureted engines.

These companies spent hundreds of millions on engine engineering, to meet EPA and mileage standards. The best and cheapest way to get what you're looking for is to use a modern, well established engine. You can pick up a cheap rust bucket junker, pull the drivetrain, computer and harnesses out, overhaul the engine and stick it in your classic. Adjustment tweaks happen with the press of a computer key, if necessary.

Otherwise if you cruise, appreciate your classic engine for what it is but change it to be safe and to run on modern fuels and lubricants. - Dave
Not to argumentative but a O2 sensor does adjust A/F mixture but on a very limited basis, a O2 sensor is nothing more then a monitoring system with small minor corrections. A wide band sensor works in conjunction with the computer to adjusts the A/F fuel ratio and is a much better method for achieving Stoich.
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  #5  
Old 10-08-2013, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BDASTRK View Post
Not to argumentative but a O2 sensor does adjust A/F mixture but on a very limited basis, a O2 sensor is nothing more then a monitoring system with small minor corrections. A wide band sensor works in conjunction with the computer to adjusts the A/F fuel ratio and is a much better method for achieving Stoich.
An oxygen sensor is just that, a sensor. It changes nothing. When properly heated, it passes an analog electrical voltage to one of the EEC input ports.

The EEC delivers a pulse width modulated (PMW) output to the injectors based on the program it's running and using data from ALL sensor inputs. - Dave
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  #6  
Old 10-08-2013, 04:54 PM
Yadkin Yadkin is offline
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Although I appreciate my modern engine with electronic fuel injection, sensor feedback loops and precise metering I'm a firm believer that a properly tuned carburetor can run these old motors very efficiently.

My first car was a 72 full sized Ford with a 351W and a two barrel Autolite 2100 carb. I drove that car for years, all through college and then for two years while I was paying off my student loans. When I got it it had 90k miles and I brought it to 185k. I consistently got 17-18 mpg, and I did that with a stock motor. I simply kept it tuned, new plugs, points, condenser, rotor and cap every second oil change and a carb rebuild every third or fourth.

For one of those years, 1984, I lived in CT and an initial, followed by an annual, smog test was required for state inspection. It was an actual tail pipe sniff test, and the mechanic shook his head when he saw my 12 year old rust bucket backed in to his shop for its first test. The car registered zero in one number, I think it was CO, and very low in the second number. On my second test a year later the numbers had not changed.
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  #7  
Old 10-09-2013, 10:55 PM
BDASTRK
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
An oxygen sensor is just that, a sensor. It changes nothing. When properly heated, it passes an analog electrical voltage to one of the EEC input ports.

The EEC delivers a pulse width modulated (PMW) output to the injectors based on the program it's running and using data from ALL sensor inputs. - Dave
Yes you are right in simplistic terms it is nothing more then a sensor, However as stated before a short band O2 sensor has very little ability because of its short scale, this is why a wide band and a wide band data logger/computer is a much better method especially when traveling up in altitude, and at sea level.

There are different levels of everything in after market injection systems, you get a standard o2 sensor with just about every MFG, however one must step up to plate to buy the single or dual wide band if you truly want the proper fuel adjustments.

I run the dual system in every injected car I have built, this allows the computer to adjust each bank instead of assuming that both banks are equal.
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  #8  
Old 10-10-2013, 05:07 AM
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Wide band sensors have been around and used for ten years. They aren't new and my description is right on the money. The only advantage in using a Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor is in response time, to help eliminate 'hunting'.

Having said that, every time your foot changes gas pedal settings, the EEC still hunts. That's what it's supposed to do, shoot for 14.7 air to fuel (not the stoichiometric point), all the time.

Ron, you have a misconception regarding the 'scale'. Actually, the difference between the original lambda probes and the zirconia sensors is in response time (and the addition of two more wires), but they both output analog signals accurately.

Does it matter in a sports car? Not really. For many years, Ford only offered the Cobra with a manual transmission because the EEC was too slow to shift the transmission and control the engine.

GTs came with automatics but no Cobra engine. Even so, at Wide Open Throttle, the EEC runs a canned open loop program which doesn't even look at the oxygen sensor inputs. So this business of controlling air to fuel is more applicable to the masses; family car service and sensible driving.

I can't believe it, I've been using PWM for decades in servo systems for speed control, robotics, etc. In my last post I called it a, 'PMW'... Ha! Well, at least nobody else caught it even though it was quoted. - Dave
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CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

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--Lee Iacocca
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  #9  
Old 10-10-2013, 10:29 AM
BDASTRK
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
Wide band sensors have been around and used for ten years. They aren't new and my description is right on the money. The only advantage in using a Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor is in response time, to help eliminate 'hunting'.

Having said that, every time your foot changes gas pedal settings, the EEC still hunts. That's what it's supposed to do, shoot for 14.7 air to fuel (not the stoichiometric point), all the time.

Ron, you have a misconception regarding the 'scale'. Actually, the difference between the original lambda probes and the zirconia sensors is in response time (and the addition of two more wires), but they both output analog signals accurately.

Does it matter in a sports car? Not really. For many years, Ford only offered the Cobra with a manual transmission because the EEC was too slow to shift the transmission and control the engine.

GTs came with automatics but no Cobra engine. Even so, at Wide Open Throttle, the EEC runs a canned open loop program which doesn't even look at the oxygen sensor inputs. So this business of controlling air to fuel is more applicable to the masses; family car service and sensible driving.

I can't believe it, I've been using PWM for decades in servo systems for speed control, robotics, etc. In my last post I called it a, 'PMW'... Ha! Well, at least nobody else caught it even though it was quoted. - Dave
I couldnt disagree more!

I will give you an example I made a program change via Gen 7 DFI earlier in the year and the car gained about 15 RWHP and had better down low performance. A couple of months ago we where going on a road trip and I changed everything, Fuel filters, Plugs etc and when I did the car actually wiped out the O2 sensor " No wide band " or wide band controller.

If your thinking on the lines of stock ECU's ok I will give you that, but like the majority of anything Stock it sucks and is designed for reliability and as a whole not performance.

They are two totally different things. You reference 14.7 like that is the perfect A/F mixture and I assure you it isnt and it changes from motor to motor and RPM to RPM. You run 14.7 at 5000 RPM's in a Tuna Boat 4000 lb T-Bird and it wont see 5100 RPM's.

14.7 is fine for Idle as a whole but I can tell you that my wifes 383 stroker in her 32 does not like 14.7 " Too Lean " so it idles best at 14.0.

Many, Many factors in tuning in performance vehicles, if it was easy and so called expert could do it. Again if one is looking for a reliable base system then use a stock ECU, but if you are heading down the after Market performance road and want to optimize the performance and the system for what it was designed for, be prepared to do your home work and dont think that a standard loaded can tune is going to get you there...............because it wont.

I have I bet 100 hrs of programming in the wifes 32, and that car runs low 10's in the 1/4 mile and drives on the street like a stock new car..............its called the best of both worlds.
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