Manual shift trans is grinding.

[simplyconnected]

Youtube has an excellent video on how the brass synchro blocking rings work. CLICK HERE

The wear which causes your shifter to grind or prevent gear changes happens inside the cone and around the three clutch hub inserts. These inserts can eventually elongate the slots which prevents the synchro rings from aligning. The inside cone also wears which prevents braking and causes that horrible grinding.

If you watch the video you will get a much better understanding of what's really happening inside your top loader. The guy actually has Muncie trans parts to show but Ford transmissions work the same. He also explains the importance of using correct lube and why your manual trans can burn up with the wrong oil.

My first manual trans rebuild was done on a Muncie from my '66 GTO, way back in the day. Once you get into it, rebuilding a manual trans is not real technical and a lot easier than it looks.

All these parts are available at reasonable prices. This is work you can do. The end result is very rewarding. To be honest, I never had the book to look at and I didn't need it. (My cluster gear had missing teeth so I changed it.) Good luck, Dave. - Dave

[simplyconnected]

BTW, check out toploaderheaven's site: CLICK HERE

This guy will answer any of your questions over the phone until you're back on the road and provide a DVD to show how to rebuild your trans.

Want references? CLICK HERE (from the fordmuscle/Mustang forum) - Dave

[davidmij]

Great info guys, thanks a ton!

The syncros video was great. I had no idea how they worked. I thought because the little teeth on the brass blocking gears looked good (on the outside) then they were fine. Little did I know that the problem would be on the inside cone of that gear! I actually thought the brass one was the syncro - learning all the time!

I will definitely use the 75-90 gear oil now too.

My son will be home from college in a few weeks. With him helping I can pull the trans and do what I need to. I was considering pulling my console inside the car and cutting a hole right above the access plate to the toploader. That way I wouldn't have to pull the trans. Then when I'm done I could cover it with an aluminum plate and thick gasket of some sort. However, I think I would also like to replace the clutch with something heavier duty so I'll still need to pull everything anyway.

Can you guys suggest anything in the way of a "heavier" duty clutch? The reason I ask is because I plan to have a shop in Albuquerque eventually (sometime in the next two years) build me a stroker out of my 390. Either that or I'll be adding an Edelbrock RPM performer intake, cam, and have my heads ported and matched. I want to end up with about 400+ hp. Right now I have a stock 315 hp 427 torque 390. I also have headers so I'm guessing I'm at around 350 hp.

One more question - if I use my stock sized 15 inch wheels my tire diameter is about 26 inches and the car can spin the tires no problem. Plus it is easy to get rolling from a dead stop.
But, when I put on the cheater slicks my diameter is 28.5 inches and the tires are also wider. It doesn't start from a dead stop as well as with the small tires. I have to ride the clutch a little longer and use a tad more RPM's. If I try to spin the tires with the slicks it just burns clutch. I have a 3.89 open rearend. Is a performance clutch and pressure plate what I need?

I know this is not normal wear and tear for what a car is intended. I will only be putting about 500 miles a year on this car and taking it to RatRod car gatherings. I've only tried spinning the old school cheater slicks on a very remote stretch of road that is safe and out of traffic. Maybe it's just that my motor (bottom half) is old and tired.

Anyway, thanks again, Dave J

[simplyconnected]

...I actually thought the brass one was the syncro - learning all the time!...

It is! Ford calls this part, "RING - SYNCHRONIZER BLOCKING" and we commonly call it a, 'synchro-ring.'

...One more question - if I use my stock sized 15 inch wheels my tire diameter is about 26 inches and the car can spin the tires no problem. Plus it is easy to get rolling from a dead stop.
But, when I put on the cheater slicks my diameter is 28.5 inches and the tires are also wider. It doesn't start from a dead stop as well as with the small tires. I have to ride the clutch a little longer and use a tad more RPM's. If I try to spin the tires with the slicks it just burns clutch...

The reason we go with lower rear end gears is to lighten the burden on the rear member. When you apply lots of power train torque, then try to hold the car to the road with wide and sticky slicks, the weakest link is your rear end assembly. Changing the ratio to a high gear ratio like 3.9:1 or 4.3:1 allows the gears to transfer torque to the wheels much easier without breaking. It's not how easy you can burn rubber, it's how well the car launches.

I have seen axles that actually twisted 1/2 turn before breaking. More commonly, we have all seen ring and pinion gears let loose from extremely high torque. Nobody wants their top end to be 100mph but that's the tradeoff when you go with really high RE ratios.

The 8.8" RE in my 400HP Mustang was 4.30:1 but my (AOD) transmission had overdrive, which brought my top end back up again. So, changing one component affects so many others.

Want more ponies? Either buy an EFI system for your 390 or a Paxton (or Vortech) supercharger or do both. Your engine will wake up with tons more hp, using pump gas. Want your car to go faster? Shed about 1,000 lbs and buy an aluminum Mustang. - Dave

[KULTULZ]

My son will be home from college in a few weeks. With him helping I can pull the trans and do what I need to. I was considering pulling my console inside the car and cutting a hole right above the access plate to the toploader. That way I wouldn't have to pull the trans. Then when I'm done I could cover it with an aluminum plate and thick gasket of some sort. However, I think I would also like to replace the clutch with something heavier duty so I'll still need to pull everything anyway.

Can you guys suggest anything in the way of a "heavier" duty clutch? The reason I ask is because I plan to have a shop in Albuquerque eventually (sometime in the next two years) build me a stroker out of my 390. Either that or I'll be adding an Edelbrock RPM performer intake, cam, and have my heads ported and matched. I want to end up with about 400+ hp. Right now I have a stock 315 hp 427 torque 390. I also have headers so I'm guessing I'm at around 350 hp.

One more question - if I use my stock sized 15 inch wheels my tire diameter is about 26 inches and the car can spin the tires no problem. Plus it is easy to get rolling from a dead stop.
But, when I put on the cheater slicks my diameter is 28.5 inches and the tires are also wider. It doesn't start from a dead stop as well as with the small tires. I have to ride the clutch a little longer and use a tad more RPM's. If I try to spin the tires with the slicks it just burns clutch. I have a 3.89 open rearend. Is a performance clutch and pressure plate what I need?

I know this is not normal wear and tear for what a car is intended. I will only be putting about 500 miles a year on this car and taking it to RatRod car gatherings. I've only tried spinning the old school cheater slicks on a very remote stretch of road that is safe and out of traffic. Maybe it's just that my motor (bottom half) is old and tired.

Anyway, thanks again, Dave J

The trans has to be disassembled out of the car. The tail-shaft housing has to come off and the rear bearing has to be pressed out. Get rebuild info before going any further. It is unlike a BW, SAGINAW or MUNCIE.

As for your rear, the is a formula to take all the values (tire size, rear ratio, peak HP/torque RPM) to arrive at the desired performance. You will also need a closed rear and traction control device(s).

This will give you an idea about a performance clutch asm- http://haysclutches.com/

Did you get my E-MAIL?

[davidmij]

Ha, haaa, LOL, I get the point Dave. ;0)
I guess I need to make up my mind whether I want a one wheel wonder (open rearend) tire spinning junker, or a true posi, traction grabbing fast car. If I want the latter I better figure out how to shed at least 800 pounds.

I don't think I'll be throwing down $4000 for a supercharger on this rust bucket though. So I think I'm going to go for just acting fast instead of being fast. If you look at my pictures of the engine when it was opened up you can see that I really need to have the block, pistons, and cam rebuilt. There's a very reputable shop in Albuquerque (Andersons Automotive Machine) who can do it for around $800. They'll do the heads for a couple of hundred too. Then I can get an Edelbrock RPM performer intake for $300, and a carb, and put the top end together myself. That should put me just shy of 400hp, plus I'll have that famous FE torque. Upgrade the the pressure plate and clutch and (hopefully) be able to spin ONE of those cheap old school cheater slicks.

Anyway, back to the trans. I just checked my e-mail and I did get your e-mail Gary, thanks a ton! I'll go over it tonight at home and hopefully learn some stuff.

If you look at picture 56 on my link to my car you can kind of see that the ball fitting that sits on the clutch fork is pointing very downward. I'm gonna have a local shop fix the down arm of the Z-bar to be a little longer and that should help it go straight into the clutch fork. I'll also try the 75-90 gear oil. If everything else looks like it is adjusted correctly then I'll be pulling the trans and either learning how to rebuild a toploader or use a guy here in town that rebuilds transmissions in his garage.

thx everyone, stay tuned......

[simplyconnected]

...use a guy here in town that rebuilds transmissions in his garage...

That's the way to do it.

Most trans places charge a lot because they have to remove your trans and rebuild it on a bench, then the car either occupies a bay until the trans is done OR they push the car out of the way to free up the hoist.

When you walk in with a trans, 'rebuild' turns out to be strictly bench work that doesn't cost much more than the parts kit and a couple hours of the guy's labor. If you have a guy who does this in his garage, he has tools to remove the bearings for you.

There's no such thing as, having too many restorer buddies. - Dave

[scumdog]

Just sayin':
My F100 has '70 429 with Edelbrock Torker (old original one!) 780 Holley, headers into 3" system.
Cam is Isky 272 and I have roller-rockers, guide-plates
Also has Pertronix in the dissy and Mallory coil.
Trans is C-6 with shift-kit, rear end is 'open' 4-spider unit, 2.75:1.
Rear tyres are 303 x 15" series 50 T/As on 10" rims
Truck weight in at about 4,000lb+

In a straight line it can smoke the left rear tyre all the way through 1st gear and half-way through 2nd.

1/4 mile suffers (a) due to weight,(b) rear gearing (c) non-locking rear end.

Does 13.89 at around 103mph at best, 'flying' 1/4 it has done 131mph.

But is fun to cruise in and I do a lot of road trips in it.

Sure, I COULD make it faster/quicker - but I don't want to upset the recipe...

[davidmij]

That's a torqueing motor Tom! Sounds like a great truck and a lot of fun. I have the petronix dissy, now I just need everything else.
I know zero about automatic transmissions. My 4 speed is a close ratio so that doesn't help my 1st gear power, but the 3.89 rearend should more than compensate for it.

thx, Dave

[davidmij]

Over the weekend I changed to 75-90 gear oil and adjusted the clutch fork push rod a couple of times - but it didn't help any.

Here's one more clue that should shed some light. If I am cruising along in 4th gear, skip downshifting to third and go to down shift to second but never engage it all the way - then I can downshift to third no problem. I just put a touch of pressure on second and never get even close to going into second. No grind, no crunch at all. What is happening? I don't understand very well how the trans works so I don't know what this is telling me. It must have something to do with the syncros stopping the third gear from spinning so it can down shift as it should?

Any knowledge on this symptom is appreciated.

thx, Dave J

[simplyconnected]

Revisit this video for a better understanding of how the Slots/Inserts and Synchro Rings work:

Youtube has an excellent video on how the brass synchro blocking rings work. CLICK HERE

The wear which causes your shifter to grind or prevent gear changes happens inside the cone and around the three clutch hub inserts. These inserts can eventually elongate the slots which prevents the synchro rings from aligning. The inside cone also wears which prevents braking and causes that horrible grinding...

Great info guys, thanks a ton!

The syncros video was great. I had no idea how they worked. I thought because the little teeth on the brass blocking gears looked good (on the outside) then they were fine. Little did I know that the problem would be on the inside cone of that gear! I actually thought the brass one was the syncro - learning all the time!..

Over the weekend I changed to 75-90 gear oil and adjusted the clutch fork push rod a couple of times - but it didn't help any.

Here's one more clue that should shed some light. If I am cruising along in 4th gear, skip downshifting to third and go to down shift to second but never engage it all the way - then I can downshift to third no problem. I just put a touch of pressure on second and never get even close to going into second. No grind, no crunch at all. What is happening?...

The video shows how each cone 'grabs' and matches speeds for the next shift. They also need to LET GO, or your other gears won't match speeds. This is the importance of the Inserts, Slots, and how your shifter leaves the Shift Forks as you gate the shift handle. The setup needs to be right, both IN gear and OUT of gear. - Dave

[davidmij]

Just thought I would update this post. Out of nowhere it started working again when I drove the car to work on Monday. It's been fine ever since. Anyway, most likely needs work but it can wait until I do a clutch or engine pull down the road someday.

Dave

[KULTULZ]

Just thought I would update this post. Out of nowhere it started working again when I drove the car to work on Monday. It's been fine ever since. Anyway, most likely needs work but it can wait until I do a clutch or engine pull down the road someday.

Dave

Maybe it finally wore down the high spots...

Seriously, I think the clutch setup has a lot to do with it.

[davidmij]

Who knows - at least until I tear it apart someday.

My clutch (or car) does chatter when I let out the clutch at lower rpm - maybe it's warped? I don't know which is more common, a warped clutch, pressure plate, or flywheel - I'd guess the pressure plate.
If it's warm, or I have the choke on it seems to not chatter. Maybe it's just the motor. It runs great when it's warmed up, but I think the rings are in a bad way - I think I'll do a compression check soon just so I know.

Dave

[KULTULZ]

The trouble with your setup is the full surround blow proof housing. It makes it difficult to inspect the clutch asm.

Usually, it is a worn/bent/contaminated disc that will cause clutch chatter. That and heat glaze/hot spots on the flywheel and/or pressure plate face.