This will take you to the main site where there is history, technical information and other information on these cars.
This takes you back to the main page of the forums.
This is the control panel to change your password, information and preferences on this message board.
Click here if your lost your password or need to register on this message board. You must be a registered user to post. Registration is free.
Search this board for information you need.
Click here to buy cool Squarebirds mechandise.
Click here to support Squarebirds.org. For $20 annually receive 20mBytes webspace, a Squarebirds e-mail address and member's icon on the message board.
  #61  
Old 06-21-2013, 09:44 AM
KULTULZ
 
Posts: n/a
Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by deany41 View Post

This thread is following the replacement of the original timing gear set with a roller timing set.

I am installing the roller timing set at this point. The original timing gear had the dowel pin pressed in with about .31 inch protruding to drive the fuel pump eccentric. I drove the pin out with a punch to use with the new timing gear. However the hole in the new gear is not set up to drive the pin in so it is free floating. It is now too short (due to the hole depth in the cam) and does not protrude from the timing gear face to accept the 1/8 inch thick fuel eccentric. The original length is 1.375 (x .315 dia).

Should I not try to obtain 5/16 hardened dowel stock and cut to the correct length (1.62) and then use a large washer when installing the gear and eccentric to the cam so the dowel does not back out?

Although I put on an electric fuel pump I still like the feeling of having the manual pump for redundancy.

The pictures just depicts the dowel not protruding the gear and the other to depict the eccentric and pin without a keeper washer.

If anyone has any ideas on where to get a pin with adequate hardness would appreciate the info.

Thanks.

Dean Y
The dowel pin length for the 58/62 sprocket (B8A 6256-A - Cast Iron) was 5/16" X 7/8" L.

The 1963 upgrade dowel pin length (with OEM cam sprocket C3AZ 6256-A [Cast Alum] W/required spacer 6265) is 5/16" X 1 1/2" L.

This same dowel length was carried over to the next supersceeding PN C8AZ 6256-A (ALUM W/ NYLON) and this part change/upgrade was where FORD eliminated the 6265 spacer and increased the cam sprocket thickness - most current aftermarket cam sprockets use this thickness).

The cam sprocket retaining bolt for the early button setup was 7/16" -14 X 1 1/4".

The cam sprocket retaining bolt for the 1963 upgrade and 1968 service replacement/upgrade (also retrofit for C3AZ 6256-A) was 7/16" -14 X 1 7/8".

The earlier fuel pump eccentric was replaced by C3AZ 6287-A both as a cam drive upgrade and a general service replacment part as far back as the 1958 352.

This is for your information in trying to figure out what was and was not done with the cam upgrade.

PLEASE READ-

Quote:
Timing Chain and Gear Installation

When changing a timing chain and gears you will find that virtually all of the replacement top timing gears have a thicker mounting flange on the back of the sprocket. On the original installation, many FE's had a spacer washer between the cam and gear. It will be similar in shape to a round horse shoe, open on one side.

THIS SPACER MUST BE REMOVED BEFORE INSTALLING NEW GEAR OR SERIOUS ENGINE DAMAGE CAN RESULT UPON START-UP.

If the top timing sprocket you have taken off is thinner than the one you are replacing it with, the spacer is in there and may be difficult see. Look in the cam retainer on the front of the cam, it will usually be hiding there. If the "thick" gear is installed, the camshaft will be pushed back into the rear cam plug, and the lobes relationship to the lifters will be wrong. This can destroy the cam and lifters in a matter of seconds and the metal particles will destroy the oil pump, crank and bearings shortly thereafter.

-Bill Ballinger (Member of FE GURU COUNCIL @

http://www.fordfe.info/Forum/FAQ-Sty...2.html#390-410

Last edited by KULTULZ : 06-21-2013 at 12:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 06-21-2013, 10:42 AM
deany41's Avatar
deany41 deany41 is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 28 2012
Posts: 28
deany41 is on a distinguished road
Default Cam Gear Dowel Pin

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post

6265 is part of most aftermarket cam sprockets (like yours).
Notice that my dowel pin enters into the eccentric just enough to 'catch' it. I don't know how far because I didn't measure it but I would guess somewhere around .080" deep. The dowel doesn't go half way into the eccentric. Nothing is precision here because it really doesn't need to be. The dowel isn't that hard, either.

Your original setup had NO thrust plate. The cam 'snout' didn't stick out, and I'm sure the dowel pin was a different length.

Now for the good news...

rockauto.com sells your dowel pin for $2.50:
Category: Camshaft Dowel Pin, FEL-PRO Part # ES74004


I hope this helps. - Dave
Yes this information helps immensely. I would imagine the pin can't protrude even a couple thousands out of the eccentric otherwise it would throw off the bolt when the cam bolt is torqued to spec. Don't know if the performance cam hole is a standard depth matching the original 1963> cams. I will have to find out the length of the part or find a machine shop that may carry this kind of stock. The cam gear I am replacing did have the spacer built into the hub matching the roller gear. Last thing I need right now is what Mel's quote described. Yikes!

Will be anxious to see how the engine performs once the assembly is complete. Will be cautious at this point not to rush to judgement. Maybe more worms in the apple, but at least this one should be removed.

Thanks again
Dean Y
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 06-21-2013, 10:43 AM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,069
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Gary, why are you sending all that info? Dean already has a cam upgrade with a thrust plate and a modern sprocket. He really doesn't need anything else.
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 06-21-2013, 11:03 AM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,069
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Dean, run over to the NAPA auto parts store, 728 W 6th St
Libby, and ask them if they sell Fel Pro cam dowels. If not, order that one I posted for two bucks.
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 06-21-2013, 12:09 PM
KULTULZ
 
Posts: n/a
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by deany41 View Post

Yes this information helps immensely. I would imagine the pin can't protrude even a couple thousands out of the eccentric otherwise it would throw off the bolt when the cam bolt is torqued to spec. Don't know if the performance cam hole is a standard depth matching the original 1963> cams.

I will have to find out the length of the part or find a machine shop that may carry this kind of stock. The cam gear I am replacing did have the spacer built into the hub matching the roller gear. Last thing I need right now is what Mel's quote described. Yikes!

Will be anxious to see how the engine performs once the assembly is complete. Will be cautious at this point not to rush to judgement. Maybe more worms in the apple, but at least this one should be removed.

Thanks again

Dean Y
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post

Gary, why are you sending all that info?
...huh???


Quote:
Dean already has a cam upgrade with a thrust plate and a modern sprocket. He really doesn't need anything else.
Well Dave, I will tell you. He has a partial upgrade and whoever performed the conversion was not quite up to speed. That and two different length cap screws and dowels also confusing the issue.

I thought he would appreciate the info and it is also posted here in posterity for future conversions where the details are not that clear may make it easier for others to perform the upgrade..

Sorry I stepped on your toes Dave, was just trying to help the poster.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 06-21-2013, 08:41 PM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,069
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ View Post
...Sorry I stepped on your toes Dave, was just trying to help the poster.
Oh, ok. Sorry Gary, I guess the more info we have the better off we are.
I didn't want to confuse the poor guy when all he needs is a three dollar dowel pin.

His thrust plate screws were the right length but the socket heads were ground down to clear the sprocket. Ok... it works as well as the button head cap screws when you're in Lincoln, Montana, and parts are far away. - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 07-16-2013, 09:50 PM
deany41's Avatar
deany41 deany41 is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 28 2012
Posts: 28
deany41 is on a distinguished road
Default Timing gear and chain installed...engine fired up

Wanted to post an update on my TBird which corrected a misalignment of the timing gears and to confirm the recommended double roller timing gear and chain were installed, all parts reinstalled, added new plugs. The damper was remarked to indicate true TDC after degreeing the cam and the pointer was dead on TDC until the initial firing of the engine.
After firing the engine, the timing was set at 6 degrees since it seemed to run best for the moment at this setting.

I will reserve over excitement, but I must say that it purrs like a kitten.....so far. I double checked carburator settings. Ran the car up and down the highway without the hood and it accelerates smoothly, cruises at 70MPH and idles back down nicely. No black smoke pumping out of exhaust and funky idling.

Of course I must thank Dave and others for the recommendations made. This has been a great ending and am glad to end the hours of frustration. Many thanks. This free's me up to work on the finer points of the car and enjoy taking it out on the highway for more than a mile either side of Lincoln.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 07-17-2013, 08:28 AM
KULTULZ
 
Posts: n/a
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post

His thrust plate screws were the right length but the socket heads were ground down to clear the sprocket.

- Dave
The sizes and references I offered were relating to the cam sprocket retaining cap screw, not the cam retaining plate cap screws.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 07-17-2013, 03:48 PM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,069
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deany41 View Post
...This has been a great ending and am glad to end the hours of frustration...
That's what this site is all about, Dean. We have lots of great mechanics here, eager to help solve these problems.

As you found out, even a newly overhauled engine may not be timed correctly. The builder used real good parts but he simply did not take the time to check his work before covering the engine.

Your car was built to run at speeds in excess of interstate postings. Do not be afraid to enjoy your Thunderbird. It's a great car. Glad we could help and thanks for the update. - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca

Last edited by simplyconnected : 07-17-2013 at 04:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:59 AM.

Driving, racing or working on cars can be hazardous. The procedures and advice on this website including the message board are opinion only. Squarebirds.org and its webmasters and contributors do not guarantee the correctness of the advice and procedures. The Squarebirds.org and its webmasters assume no liability for any damage, fines, punishment, injury or death resulting from following these procedures or advice. If you do not have the skills or tools to repair your car, please consult a professional. By using this site you agree to hold harmless the Squarebirds.org, its authors and its webmasters from any resulting claim and costs that may occur from using the information found on this site.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Any submissions to this site and any post on this site becomes property of Squarebirds.org . The webmasters reserve the right to edit and modify any submissions to this site. All material on this is site is copyrighted by the Squarebirds.org. Reproduction by any means other than for personal use is strictly prohibited. Permission to use material on this site can be obtained by contacting the webmasters. Copyright 2002-2016 by Squarebirds.org.