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  #11  
Old 06-13-2012, 03:21 PM
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I'd like to make another bracket but I only trust the one I made for my own car. I would hate for it to fail and ruin someone elses car or worse.

John Draxler at the Thunderbird Ranch had found a couple of factory extender brackets with the booster and may have one still available for sale. Possible he will have the whole set-up. http://www.tbirdranch.com/

I have disc brakes on my car and have used mid 70's Ford LTD wheels that are 14 inch so I was able to keep the original size wheel and tire. I am running a proportioning valve and agree with Dave on installing one.

I went the route of converting with Ford Granada spindles. It works great but I would not recommend that route with the Scarebird brackets that are available today. Check the disc brake link given if you decide to go ahead with the conversion - lots of things to consider but the rewards are WELL worth it.

Eric



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  #12  
Old 06-13-2012, 04:30 PM
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Default Master Cylinder upgrade?

Being as Sunnybob is in Italy, he might have a problem finding 14" disc brake ready rims. (Unless his Tbird already has them on the car!) When I got my 14" Granada rims off a disc brake equipped Granada, I got five of them. One for each wheel and a spare, so that if I had a flat, or when I rotate tires, any rim I switch out will fit on those front disc brakes. Here is a list of what you might want to look for in Italian car boneyards.

14" Front Disc/Rear Drums Brake ready rims that will work. Be sure they are vented rims.
14" '95 Ford Ranger
14" '98 Ford Ranger
14" Mustang wheels
14" 1975 and up Granada, or Mercury/Lincoln of the same era (76 thru 83??)
14" Lincoln Versailles 1977-1980 are a perfect match if you can find them.
14" Early 70's Torino or Ranchero
14" 1974 Ford Maverick
14" 1977-1980 LTD II

These come to mind and being 14" rims, our hubcaps should fit right on. If you want to put dog dish hubcaps on like I did, make sure these vented rims have the mounting nubs for dog dishes.

And yes, I have 14" front disc brake ready Granada rims on Rose and I have no venting or brake fading problems. They stop very, very well. You have to get used to the big improvement in braking or you could put yourself through the windshield. I also have a chromed dual master cylinder and 8" dual power booster under the hood, using the special mounting bracket that Howard Prout made for his and my installation, to clear the AC plenum box. Works great! Here are some pix.
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File Type: jpg IMGP5765.jpg (95.9 KB, 142 views)
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  #13  
Old 06-14-2012, 07:21 AM
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Thank the many tips that you gave me.I apologize if my english is a bit difficult to understand. My idea was to put a dual Master Cylinder with a 8-inch booster in the engine compartment, splitting the system and just replacing the original MC with its underdash booster. I thought that the valve would need only in the case of mixed brakes discs / drums. In any case there would not be a big problem installing it. I also could try to find some 14 inch wheels that are suitable for disc brakes here in Italy but it will not be easy because American cars in my country are very rare. They were very expensive because of fuel prices and taxes, designed to promote Fiat and low displacement cars. And 5 wheels shipping fee from the USA to Italy is too much expensive. That's why I was not for going to disc. The B plan is to remove the original underdash booster and take it as a core to Larry during my summer trip to California keeping everything original.
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  #14  
Old 06-14-2012, 10:46 AM
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Your English is great - we were just trying to persuade you to go with discs because it is such an improvement. Sometimes it's not practical but those of us that have converted like to tell about it.

Dave mentioned the main problem with splitting the system - once you split the system it becomes 2 braking systems with separate reservoirs and master cylinders for each system. The back could be working great but not provide much stopping power if the front was out of adjustment. The valve makes up for that and balances the system. You could probably get by without it but would have to keep a constant check and adjustment on your brakes. I can understand wanting to have one set working if another failed.

Ray gave the info on the Ford Ranger - from what I remember I believe it was exported world-wide so that might be a good option for wheels in Italy? Maybe you could buy some wheels here - put them in an oversize suitcase - and pay the overweight fee to take them back? May be able to find a new set from Summit racing or other aftermarket manufacturers. Plan B sounds good too.....

Hope you get a chance to show us a few pictures of the Thunderbird riding around Italy soon!

Eric
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  #15  
Old 06-14-2012, 11:46 AM
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Eric thank you so much. I really appreciate your advices and sure disc are better than drums . Ford Rangers are quite rare too, anyway I could check with a swiss friend. I live in Milan and Switzerland border is quite near: they had more american cars because they had not a national maker to defend so I could find some Ford wheels there.

I will put some pictures of my car soon

Roberto
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  #16  
Old 06-18-2012, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKheld View Post

Dave mentioned the main problem with splitting the system - once you split the system it becomes 2 braking systems with separate reservoirs and master cylinders for each system. The back could be working great but not provide much stopping power if the front was out of adjustment.

The valve makes up for that and balances the system. You could probably get by without it but would have to keep a constant check and adjustment on your brakes. I can understand wanting to have one set working if another failed.

Eric
The valve needed (ideally) (as one is not needed specifically) on a drum/drum application would be a PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL VALVE, not a PROPORTIONING VALVE. If not using this valve (PDV), the system if experiencing a failure on either circuit, will still have braking effort on the working circuit until a loss of brake fluid would disable the non-affected circuit.

The valve (PDV) senses loss of pressure in either circuit and then would close that circuit to prevent further fluid leakage and also trip a warning lamp to warn the driver of the hydraulic failure.

A PROPORTIONING VALVE is not needed in this system as brake bias is determined by wheel cylinder size, brake line size and foundation brake size. This valve only comes into play during a panic stop situation. It restricts pressure to the rear brakes to hopefully prevent rear lockup and resultant vehicle swing around. If one deems a proportioning valve necessary, one should find one from an original OEM drum/drum application for proper bias setting (OEM) or if using an adjustable, it should be calibrated on a skid pad.
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  #17  
Old 06-18-2012, 05:01 PM
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I believe I specifically said it correctly all along with full explanation:
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
...A combination proportioning valve uses a piston BETWEEN the front and the rear systems. It also does much more: It meters, so the rears come in first, then it proportions (in your case 1:1 with drum/drum or disk/disk - it's the same valve), and it shuts off the ruptured side if you get a leak, so your M/C doesn't run out of fluid. When the piston shuts off one side, the valve grounds an electrical contact so you can use a dash warning light.
I did NOT specify a proportioning valve without the word 'combination', and I never will. If you read my prior threads/posts, I have always advised members to use a Ford or GM (OEM) type valve which is a COMBINATION, not just a differential or flow control valve. I also encourage everyone to peruse professional brake companies' web sites. BTW, I did Excellent in Hydraulics 101. - Dave
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  #18  
Old 06-19-2012, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post

I believe I specifically said it correctly all along with full explanation:


I did NOT specify a proportioning valve without the word 'combination', and I never will. If you read my prior threads/posts, I have always advised members to use a Ford or GM (OEM) type valve which is a COMBINATION, not just a differential or flow control valve. I also encourage everyone to peruse professional brake companies' web sites. BTW, I did Excellent in Hydraulics 101. - Dave
Dave, glad you did so well in class...

The point I am trying to make is the differences in valving. For some reason, and it is difficult to understand, many do not know the purposes of valving.

A COMBINATION VALVE most likely will also include a front METERING VALVE which is definitely not needed on a drum/drum application.
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  #19  
Old 06-20-2012, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ View Post
For some reason, and it is difficult to understand, many do not know the purposes of valving...
Gary, there are many functions on your car that folks don't understand, but they work and we use them. Modern science cannot explain why we sneeze, or why passing a wire through a magnetic field produces electrical current. All that maters is we take full advantage of these truths.

We both agree that an OEM valve is necessary. All the OEM valves installed on cars ever since split systems came out have been 'combination' (with metering, proportioning, differential (even if it's 1:1 like disk/disk systems), but not flow control).

Metering is a good thing on all brake systems. It ensures the rear brakes apply first, for better traction control. Do we need it? It has already been included from the factory and yes, I want it on my family car whether the wife understands it or not. Old drum/drum systems never had Metering because they used a 'mono' system and all wheels got the exact same pressure (thanks to Louis Pascal's Law).

In any event, if you are using a dual master cylinder, you need an OEM-type combination valve suitable for your system whether it is drum/drum, drum/disk, or disk/disk. Dave
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  #20  
Old 06-20-2012, 07:47 AM
KULTULZ
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post

Gary, there are many functions on your car that folks don't understand, but they work and we use them. Modern science cannot explain why we sneeze, or why passing a wire through a magnetic field produces electrical current. All that maters is we take full advantage of these truths.
What I was trying to convey Dave is that brake valving is a not fully understood subject. There are even many modern techs that do not fully understand the older systems, and the techs of older years were even worse (IMO).

Often, conflicting descriptions of the actual part(s) adds additional confusion.

Quote:
We both agree that an OEM valve is necessary. All the OEM valves installed on cars ever since split systems came out have been 'combination' (with metering, proportioning, differential (even if it's 1:1 like disk/disk systems), but not flow control).
Not all valving Dave. If you study just FORD valving as the split system was being introduced, the valves were separate. The actual combination valve was not introduced until the very late sixties.

Quote:
Metering is a good thing on all brake systems. It ensures the rear brakes apply first, for better traction control. Do we need it? It has already been included from the factory and yes, I want it on my family car whether the wife understands it or not. Old drum/drum systems never had Metering because they used a 'mono' system and all wheels got the exact same pressure (thanks to Louis Pascal's Law).

In any event, if you are using a dual master cylinder, you need an OEM-type combination valve suitable for your system whether it is drum/drum, drum/disk, or disk/disk. Dave
A metering valve is not used on a drum/drum application. The first valving had the pressure differential valve (for safety) and a proportioning valve (for panic stop situations).

Excerpt From- http://freeasestudyguides.com/brake-metering-valve.html

Quote:
The metering valve is a used by front disc rear drum type brake systems to delay the front calipers enough to overcome the rear brake springs and linkage.
Quote:
A proportioning valve is a height sensing valve located in-line to the rear brake system. This valve is used to prevent rear wheel lock-up during sudden and hard braking situations.
NOTE-

The above description of the proportioning valve is not correct. The text is defining a vehicle height sensing valve as used on a truck and or passenger van. See the problems?

OK, I have stated my position and of course you have a rebuttal...
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