This will take you to the main site where there is history, technical information and other information on these cars.
This takes you back to the main page of the forums.
This is the control panel to change your password, information and preferences on this message board.
Click here if your lost your password or need to register on this message board. You must be a registered user to post. Registration is free.
Search this board for information you need.
Click here to buy cool Squarebirds mechandise.
Click here to support Squarebirds.org. For $20 annually receive 20mBytes webspace, a Squarebirds e-mail address and member's icon on the message board.
  #11  
Old 11-25-2011, 08:12 AM
Joe Johnston Joe Johnston is offline
Super-Experienced
 
Join Date: Dec 23 2008
Posts: 662
Joe Johnston is on a distinguished road
Default

To all who read this post - WE should all print out Dave's instructions and keep them with our manuals for reference. Sooner or later we will need this info!!

Great explaination on setting the distributor which is often an intimidating job.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-25-2011, 09:39 AM
davidmij davidmij is offline
Super-Experienced
 
Join Date: Jan 17 2011
Posts: 660
davidmij is on a distinguished road
Default

Indeed Joe, I have a 1992 F-250 with a 460 that has always pinged at low RPM, and seems under powered. It'll be next after I work on this 390 I'm trying to get running.
Thanks again Mr. Dare.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-25-2011, 09:55 AM
Dakota Boy's Avatar
Dakota Boy Dakota Boy is offline
Super-Experienced
 
Join Date: Jun 30 2009
Posts: 1,498
Dakota Boy is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
I caught 460's off by 15-degrees. Later, I discovered Ford set them that way from the factory for emissions. That's why these engines were DOGS! Correcting the cam and crank timing properly, unleashes big HP.
I'll be checking my 460 at some point before next Spring. Apparently '73 and up 460's had a timing set that was 8 degrees retarded. Earlier 460's were "straight up". My motor is a '73 and was freshly-rebuilt when I got it, but the seller had alot of cars and just couldnt recall exactly what timing set was put in there.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-25-2011, 10:26 PM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,089
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Joe Johnston & Davidmij, thanks for the kind words, but i am honored to help our restorers. This is practical knowledge that's hidden in the shop manuals, but the info is there if you think about it.

Let's back up a bit. Before setting anything to the crank marks, let's make sure they are right. I use three basic tools that cost very little or could be made:
* Go online, print a degree wheel, and glue it to a shirtboard.
* Spare the threads but smash the porcelain out of an old spark plug and weld-in a piece of mild steel round stock that sticks out ~1-1/4". (I call this a 'slug'.)
* Use a small wire made from a hanger, bolted under any engine screw, and point it to the degree wheel edge.

Disconnect the battery and unscrew #1 (or #6) spark plug. Replace it with the new steel slug you just made. With the degree wheel bolted to the crank, slowly turn the crank with a wrench until it stops. Make a mark on the wheel at the pointer with a pencil.
Slowly turn the crank in the opposite direction until it stops, and make another mark on the wheel at the pointer. TDC is exactly between those two marks you made. Turn the crank in between those marks.
Now turn just the paper degree wheel until 'zero' is at the pointer.

REMOVE THE SPARK PLUG SLUG and store it away. Now, you are ready to check your cam timing against true TDC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota Boy View Post
...'73 and up 460's had a timing set that was 8 degrees retarded...
One caution is in order; when talking about 'degrees of offset' the 'standard' is in crank degrees (there are 720- crank degrees in one cam rotation). Not to confuse anyone but, 8 cam degrees are 16 crank degrees. Cam companies use 'crank degrees' on their spec cards. (Advancing the cam, retards the crank.)

I am guilty of using 'cam degrees' because I tell folks to advance the cam by four degrees. Think of the chain as having no keys. If you turned either sprocket clockwise, you would advance the cam. There are three choices for Squarebird FE's to accomplish this; retard the crank by using an offset crank key, advance the cam by using an offset bushing, or buy a timing set with multiple slots in the crank sprocket (and you choose your offset).

Dakota Boy is correct in his report of "8 degrees retarded". He is talking about 'cam degrees'. That puts the torque curve peak way up around 7,000-rpm (which de-tunes the engine), but after timing set stretch and wear, it gets even worse.

I get physically sick when I see a Police Interceptor 460 that only produces 260-hp, but that's exactly what Ford produced. Check this out:
http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119213
I don't expect anyone to run a compression ratio at 14:1 on the street, but that same 460 puts out 800-hp. I would expect a 460 with aluminum heads and 9.5:1 compression ratio and a mild street cam to output around 500-hp.
- Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca

Last edited by simplyconnected : 11-25-2011 at 10:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-27-2011, 04:51 PM
davidmij davidmij is offline
Super-Experienced
 
Join Date: Jan 17 2011
Posts: 660
davidmij is on a distinguished road
Default

OK, here's the latest. Per Dave's excellent step by step instructions I found the distributor to be one tooth off. However, when I put in on what feels to be the correct tooth it won't drop down into place - it sits about 1/4 inch too high. If I go either way one tooth it drops down perfectly - just can't get it to go on the tooth I need. I tried what you said Dave about turning the crank 1/3 of a turn either way but it still won't drop in. Any suggestions on how to work this out?
thx, Dave J.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-27-2011, 04:58 PM
davidmij davidmij is offline
Super-Experienced
 
Join Date: Jan 17 2011
Posts: 660
davidmij is on a distinguished road
Default

BTW, I tried a blob of grease to get the oil pump rod to stay centered - still can't quite get it.

-Dave
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-27-2011, 05:17 PM
Dakota Boy's Avatar
Dakota Boy Dakota Boy is offline
Super-Experienced
 
Join Date: Jun 30 2009
Posts: 1,498
Dakota Boy is on a distinguished road
Default

I've had that issue as well. I kept fiddling around, and eventually it dropped into place.

I also dont know the reason for the problem, but I'll be watching this thread for the answer!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-27-2011, 06:14 PM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,089
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

The reason it hangs is because the oil pump drive shaft is hexagon. The fact that your distributor hangs is GOOD, because it proves the driveshaft is there.

It isn't 'meshing' with the distributor's hex any more because you pulled it out and turned the distributor. Since you can't turn the oil pump from on top, you can turn the crank (which turns the distributor gear) until the driveshaft and dist once again mesh. Then, the distributor will drop down.

I used 1/3-turn as an estimate. A hex has six sides and the cam rotates half as much as the crankshaft. Soooo... you may need to go a little farther than 1/3-turn. You can't hurt anything by going farther (since the distributor gear is already engaged).

My question is; what caused the distributor to be off??? Was the distributor pulled out? If so, that answers that. If not, you need to check your cam timing in case the chain jumped a tooth. - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-27-2011, 06:42 PM
Dakota Boy's Avatar
Dakota Boy Dakota Boy is offline
Super-Experienced
 
Join Date: Jun 30 2009
Posts: 1,498
Dakota Boy is on a distinguished road
Default

This sort of stuff freaks me out a bit.

I always make some felt-tip marker marks on the distributor (before I pull it) to be sure the marks line back up when I put it back in.

I've recently ordered some books on Amazon that deals with rebuilding/servicing/hot-rodding these old Ford engines, but some of this stuff cant be learned by reading books!

Stuff like: "can you re-use a head gasket?" I know I can on my two-stroke motorcycles... but on a car engine... I dont know...
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-27-2011, 07:06 PM
simplyconnected's Avatar
simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
Slow Typist
 
Join Date: May 26 2009
Posts: 7,089
simplyconnected is on a distinguished road
Default

Don't be disheartened, Dakota. The reason distributor gears are beveled is to make sure the natural rotation pulls the distributor down.

The consequence is, it cannot drop straight down upon installation. So... they make the oil pump driveshaft with a point on the end, and the distributor hex with a 'cup' configuration to guide the point in.

There's a whole lot about engines they don't teach you in the Service Manual. I have found inaccurate torque specs which caused me to break a head bolt. Thank God I got it out.



This bolt is on the end of a Y-Block head and it goes through a water jacket. That's why all the white goop on the bolt. Of course, it was the LAST bolt to torque. Yes, I did use the head gasket over, and it still runs very well. - Dave
__________________
My latest project:
CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

"We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
--Lee Iacocca
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:44 AM.

Driving, racing or working on cars can be hazardous. The procedures and advice on this website including the message board are opinion only. Squarebirds.org and its webmasters and contributors do not guarantee the correctness of the advice and procedures. The Squarebirds.org and its webmasters assume no liability for any damage, fines, punishment, injury or death resulting from following these procedures or advice. If you do not have the skills or tools to repair your car, please consult a professional. By using this site you agree to hold harmless the Squarebirds.org, its authors and its webmasters from any resulting claim and costs that may occur from using the information found on this site.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Any submissions to this site and any post on this site becomes property of Squarebirds.org . The webmasters reserve the right to edit and modify any submissions to this site. All material on this is site is copyrighted by the Squarebirds.org. Reproduction by any means other than for personal use is strictly prohibited. Permission to use material on this site can be obtained by contacting the webmasters. Copyright 2002-2016 by Squarebirds.org.