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  • Traxxas
    Apprentice
    • Apr 24 2010
    • 30

    Vacuum Booster

    Hi guys!

    I picked up a 1959 Squarebird a few years ago and now I'm out of college I have time to restore it! But the interesting part is I'm on a budget! The original engine was replaced with a 428 Cobra Jet from a 68 Turino so I'm really not going for original but just a fun driver. The restoration is going pretty well, under the hood is all painted, did a complete overhaul, the interior is really close to being finished, the outside is last. The picture below is when I first got it years ago.

    My problem is the Vacuum booster is pretty aged, and I'm not sure if I want to put my hands in a 50 year old sticky booster. So my question to you gear heads is there another booster that will fit the Birds that are more common from another vehicle?



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  • YellowRose
    Super-Experienced


    • Jan 21 2008
    • 17191

    #2
    Vacuum Booster

    Hi Bob! Welcome aboard! Lets find out a bit more about your vacuum booster. I am assuming that you are talking about the under the dash power booster that many of the '59's, like mine, have factory installed on them.. Or does your Tbird have an under the hood single booster and master cylinder installed in it, by chance? If it is an under the dash booster, I think it can be overhauled. If it is an under the hood booster, probably the same thing, replace it.

    Does your Tbird have AC on it? If not, you might want to do what several of us have done, or are doing. Put in a dual booster and dual MC under the hood. If you have AC it gets a bit trickier because the of AC plenem in the engine well, but it can be done. And you might want to go further and put disk brakes on the front while you are at it. Howard Prout and others on here, who have gone that route, can tell you more about that. I will be doing that to my '59 in the near future.

    I see you are online still or where, so I will post this.

    Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
    The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
    Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

    https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
    Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
    https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

    Comment

    • simplyconnected
      Administrator
      • May 26 2009
      • 8779

      #3
      Welcome, Bob. Check out Howard Prout's setup:
      This Forum is for the discussion of adding a dual Master Cylinder, Dual 8" Power Booster, and Power Front Disc Brakes to the 1958, 1959 and 1960 Squarebird.
      Member, Sons of the American Revolution

      CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

      "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
      --Lee Iacocca

      From: Royal Oak, Michigan

      Comment

      • Traxxas
        Apprentice
        • Apr 24 2010
        • 30

        #4
        Wow you guys are quick!

        I'd love to go to disc but I really don't have the money. Someday I will. The funny thing is my dad has all the break parts from a Grenada sitting in the garage but that's going on his 65 mustang and won't part with them!

        It thankfully does not have a AC unit, and don't need one in the pacific northwest either!

        Anyway is this dog here, single. So I'd like to replace with one or get this one working really good.



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        Last edited by Traxxas; April 27, 2010, 02:07 AM.
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        (='.'=)
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        Comment

        • YellowRose
          Super-Experienced


          • Jan 21 2008
          • 17191

          #5
          Vacuum Booster

          Hi Bob,

          Yup, that looks like the old single stage master cylinder and booster that you often see in the '60 Tbirds. I don't remember seeing many of them in the '59's. It might have been added after it left the factory. You can replace that with a dual mc and dual power booster system. You already have the necessary mounting bracket, it would appear. You don't have to worry about clearing an AC plenum like Howard and I have to. We got our dual MC and dual power booster from Old Irish Dave on eBay. Ours is in chrome, but you can get then natural. Here is the link to his, going for $175, as I recall. Simplyconnected knows a lot about changing over to these types of system. Maybe he can tell you more. I am headed for the sack. Good luck with your restoration work!


          Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
          The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
          Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

          https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
          Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
          https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

          Comment

          • Traxxas
            Apprentice
            • Apr 24 2010
            • 30

            #6
            Thanks a bunch, I'm going to look into that. I definitely wanted to go to a dual too. I have already gone through the drum brakes so I know they are good at that end, so this will last a long time.

            And just wanted to say this is a great forum, I've learned a lot from you pro's already. Its a shame you guys just replace your dashboards instead of repairing them (its my next project on the "Budget Bird")
            Last edited by Traxxas; April 27, 2010, 02:37 AM.
            (\__/)
            (='.'=)
            (")_(")

            Comment

            • simplyconnected
              Administrator
              • May 26 2009
              • 8779

              #7
              You need to do your brake system all at once, or you will end up doing it a few times, which costs even more money.

              Get rid of that dangerous master cylinder. Go with a dual master and a combination proportioning valve.

              With that, you will need to pipe your system. It doesn't cost that much but you need inverted flare tools, 3/16" line, and some fittings.

              You can keep your shoes for now, but disk brakes can be done using your existing spindles. Just buy S-10 caliper brackets from Scarebird (on eBay). You can buy 11" Mustang rotors at your local parts store, and your original bearings will still fit. You won't need a front-end allignment, because all your suspension remains untouched.

              To do this right, you need to do the whole system at once and be done with it. New disk brakes will put you through the windshield, and your Thunderbird will stop 'straight as an arrow', just like a modern car.

              If you fall into some money, we can give you part numbers and instructions for everything you need to do the job. If you stick with 14" wheels, they need to be made for disk brakes (like Granada wheels). - Dave
              Member, Sons of the American Revolution

              CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

              "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
              --Lee Iacocca

              From: Royal Oak, Michigan

              Comment

              • Howard Prout
                Experienced
                • Feb 11 2009
                • 443

                #8
                Bob, there is a long discussion on Disc Brake Conversion in another thread in this forum. There is a lot of good information in it. I just went through this process so I know what is involved. Although I originally intended to only install a new booster and MC, I ended up doing the disc conversion at the same time - it really is the ony way to go. Scarebird is close to you, just north of Seattle - his caliper brackets are very well made and easy to install. OldIrishDave sells the MBM booster and MC at the best price around. But he doesn't have the right booster mounting bracket. ABS Brakes are advertising a booster/mc unit with a mounting bracket but I don't know anyone who has tried it. I ended up designing and making my own mounting brackets and can share those with you if you are interested. The issue with the brackets is to set the booster out far enough from the firewall to have room for the booster rod connection (about 5") and to raise the MC enough to clear the valve cover (about 5" above the original brake pedal push rod). If you want more info, PM me.
                sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

                Comment

                • DKheld
                  Super-Experienced
                  • Aug 27 2008
                  • 1583

                  #9
                  As an alternative to the fabrication needed to install a different booster you can have your current one rebuilt for around $130. (see link below for Power Brake Booster Exchange) 1 year warranty on the booster rebuild - have had mine 7 years or so with no problems. For an additional fee (around $50?) he will change the booster face to accept the 2 bolt style master cyl capable of disc/drum systems if you decide to go with discs in the future. (mine pictured below) As far as I know there is not a 4 bolt style disc/drum master cyl - I looked for quite a while - that is why the booster face needs to be changed when going with discs and the original booster. This is not an issue with the new booster - it has the 2 bolt face. In the mean time - to stick with drums - you could just find a drum/drum master cyl with 2 bolt pattern (Torino's had them I think).

                  Rebuilding and using the original eliminates having to change the firewall bracket and install an adjustable pedal rod - not a lot of savings money wise but maybe saves a little time. The original booster probably doesn't produce as much boost as the dual action ones but my system feels just like it did when I rebuilt it as all stock drum but now it stops like a modern car - I did the Granada disc conversion on the front when I replaced the booster. Keep in mind that if you do change to discs or decide to run a split drum system for safety there will be brake line modifications needed. Plan to buy or rent some brake line tools (double flaring tool & bender mininum). Don't leave out replacing the flex lines (3) both front and one back.

                  Like Dave mentioned - you'll end up doing it twice so consider the front discs at least - they are a lot cheaper than when I did mine years ago plus brackets so you can use your original spindles. I rebuilt my drum system totally then about a year later converted to front discs (NC mountian roads).

                  Granada spindles were the only option back then but now are not the way to go unless you have access to a really good alignment shop. My first alignment was to set like it was for a 60 Tbird but the car was all over the road with the Granada spindle setup. Luckily the shop worked with me and made changes until it drove correctly - sad part is they went out of business the next month so I'm stuck finding an alignment shop if I need another alignment.

                  If you go with the disc/drum booster mod and front discs I used a 75 Lincoln Mark IV brake master cyl (may want verify with Power Brake Booster Exchange that is the right one to use) with a combination valve from Mater Power Brake in Mooresville NC.

                  I will never ever go back to drums.

                  Compared a rebuild to a conversion with quick searches at NAPA and Advance - probably left something out but close. Called a local shop to inquire about price for drum turning. Used the least expensive parts I found on the sites. Turned only front drums. Scarebird brackets off ebay. The SURPRISING breakdown:::::
                  Rebuild STD.............................. Conversion
                  Master $104.............................. $17
                  W/C F $27 x 2........................... $36 x 2 caliper (inc pads)
                  W/C R $16 x 2 ...........................$16 x 2 (keeping rear drums std)
                  Hose F $17 x 2.......................... $14 x 2 (S10) not sure they will fit old lines
                  Hose R $27............................... $ 27
                  Shoes F $15 set......................... $0 Pads inc in calipers
                  Shoes R $15 set......................... $15 (keeping rear drums std)
                  n/a........................................... $125 Combo valve
                  Booster rebuild $130................... $130
                  n/a........................................... $50 Booster mod (estimated- think this is what mine cost)
                  Turn drums $30 x 2 (front only)..... $61 x 2 (new rotors)
                  n/a............................................$169 Scarebird Brackets (inc shipping)

                  $471......................................... $787

                  ONLY $316 difference to go discs!!!!!!! Money well spent on these heavy cars IMHO.

                  Booster rebuilding service
                  Power Brake Booster Exchange rebuilds vacuum brake boosters and supplies hard-to-find booster parts. Find out more about our services online today.


                  My booster from these folks



                  The rest of the disc pics

                  http://www.dropshots.com/DKHeld#albums/Tbird%20discs


                  Eric
                  registry 5347

                  I know, I know - my posts are tooooooooooo long.
                  Last edited by DKheld; April 27, 2010, 09:51 AM. Reason: cost comparison info

                  Comment

                  • Traxxas
                    Apprentice
                    • Apr 24 2010
                    • 30

                    #10
                    Haha ok guys. I'll see what I can do, but student loans come first! I'll keep you guys updated on the repair status too.

                    But first I think I'll just be putting a dual booster on and stay away from freeways, for now anyway. I'll be going to swap meets and see if I cant scrounge up some of the parts you guys listed.
                    (\__/)
                    (='.'=)
                    (")_(")

                    Comment

                    • Traxxas
                      Apprentice
                      • Apr 24 2010
                      • 30

                      #11
                      Well I've been talking with a few people and they said to get something bigger then a 7" like what Old Irish Dave is selling, perhaps something around a 11".



                      Would a booster from a Granada work and if so what year? They tend to be a lot cheaper.

                      CARDONE is a top producer of new & remanufactured vehicle replacement parts. Its extensive portfolio includes brakes, electronics, engine, fuel/air/exhaust, motors and steering.


                      DKheld: I'd really like to switch to disc but thats down the road when I get it more road worthy. Drums do fine for putting around town and what I do.

                      Thanks a bunch guys, you have been a great help! As for the Budget Birds update I just replaced the two side windows which were broken, and now I'm working on the dashboard. I'll take some pictures tomorrow.
                      (\__/)
                      (='.'=)
                      (")_(")

                      Comment

                      • simplyconnected
                        Administrator
                        • May 26 2009
                        • 8779

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Traxxas
                        Well I've been talking with a few people and they said to get something bigger then a 7" like what Old Irish Dave is selling, perhaps something around a 11"...
                        Bob, we're not using a seven inch, we use a two-stage 8" with dual M/C, ALL from Old Irish Dave, IN CHROME for $200 (or zinc for $175). I seriously doubt you can beat that. The ROTORS are a healthy, 11".

                        Whoever you are talking with is giving you a story. When you are financially ready for modern Power Disk Brakes on your '59, come on back. We can save you lots of time and money because we have done these conversions and they work great.

                        I have a '59 Galaxie. It shares your exact same Thunderbird spindle. Here's what it looks like. CLICK HERE
                        - Dave
                        Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                        --Lee Iacocca

                        From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                        Comment

                        • YellowRose
                          Super-Experienced


                          • Jan 21 2008
                          • 17191

                          #13
                          Vacuum Booster

                          Hi Bob,

                          I think an 11" booster will not fit under the hood of our Squarebirds, but I could be wrong. The dual power booster Howard and I got from Old Irish Dave are 8" boosters. They should be more than sufficient for our needs, along with a dual master cylinder. Yes, a Granada booster should do the trick, especially if it is a dual booster. As to what year, some are getting parts off the late '70's Granada's. I do not know if they had a single or dual power booster on them back then.

                          As for Old Irish Dave's booster supply, he has plenty of them. I see that link is for the 7" dual power booster/dual MC set up. He also has the 8" set up for the same price, as I recall. He is a really great guy to work with, and really knows his stuff. I really don't see the need for anything bigger, but others with better knowledge of boosters should comment on this..

                          Glad to see you got the windows replaced. If you want to post pictures, you can send them to me and I can post them for you.
                          Last edited by YellowRose; April 28, 2010, 11:04 AM.

                          Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
                          The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
                          Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

                          https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
                          Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
                          https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

                          Comment

                          • DKheld
                            Super-Experienced
                            • Aug 27 2008
                            • 1583

                            #14
                            I went through all that back when I did my conversion - trying to piece-mill something in there - you'll spend 5x as much trying to make something work that hasn't been tried. Good luck trying to find a booster that will fit the complicated bracket contraption of the stock Tbird that moves the booster up and away from the valve cover and manifold. BTW you will need to grind the old booster off the bracket (it is not bolted on) which then makes it useless for rebuild. Then try and fit the Granada booster on the Tbird bracket, figure a way to make the Granada pushrod fit the Tbird pedal arm assembly at the right length and angle - hope it all works or it's money down the drain and no original booster left to rebuild.

                            Dave is completely correct - first question to ask someone when they tell you what you "need" to use is "how many brake conversions have they done".

                            So if you are not going disc now you are still going to have to replace the w/c's, booster, and master. From Advance Auto the Granada booster is $84 ($10 core) + $21 ($5 core) for the 10-1488 73 Mustang dual drum master = $120 and that's a55uming the Mustang m/c will fit and SEAL to the Granada booster. You can't use the Granada m/c for your drum brakes - it is a disc/drum unit.

                            The money you save scrimping on the brake system you'll need to put away for the lawyer and extra insurance you'll have to pay when the piece-mill brake system fails to stop the 2 ton car.

                            Good luck,
                            Eric

                            Comment

                            • Traxxas
                              Apprentice
                              • Apr 24 2010
                              • 30

                              #15
                              Fine fine, I'll do some looking around and see what I can do. I'm going to a mustang junkyard today and they have some Granada's up there, I'll see if I cant get some used spindles and such.

                              You guys are sure persistent.
                              (\__/)
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                              (")_(")

                              Comment

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