Brake lights have "stopped" working!!

[trim code 76]

Ok,
This is getting to be a headache!!! I have pulled the door sill plate and had found no wire, however when I pulled the side kick pad under the dash to the side I found the wire cluster running up to the dash. The wire cluster went down and looks like it may go under the top of the drivers side carpet over to the center consol? or maybe under the carpet and down along the drivers floor pan (which would not make a lot of sense because it would be subject to damage from your foot pressure). I followed it up and under the dash (very tight under there as I am a bigger guy at 6'4") I looked all over and there is NO inline fuse to be found on the green wires, only found two under there, one for the lighter? and the other for the radio? (maybe one is for the clock??) anyway those two are way over on the right side of the steering wheel. With the triple green wire connection coming off the terminal of the headlight switch attached I do get my dome light to come on (goes off when the green wire connector is pulled off the terminal). I get a reading of about 9-10 at this terminal (12 at the battery). My question is this: If I have power to the brake light terminal on the light switch but no power to the the brake light switch on the master cylinder; does this mean that my problem HAS to be on the two green wires running between the two? Or can the problem be farther down the line toward the rear brake light pods (in otherwords ANYWERE along the circuit)? YUCK I HATE ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS!!!! Also; what does the third green wire go to running off the brake light terminal of the light switch? I take it two of them are for running out to the brake light light switch on the master cylinder but have no idea what the third one is for??? Thanks for the help guys!! Sorry this one has not been solved yet and that I am not that swift on electrical stuff like this!

[JohnG]

hi
You are making progress!! You know there is no voltage at the brake switch on the MC and that is worth something.

I have an article on the headlight switch at

http://users.wpi.edu/~goulet/TBird/H...%20Repairs.htm

and it says that on a 1958 (mine) there is a group of 3 green wires for the dome light and then another green for the brake light switch. So you would appear to need to decide which one is that 4th wire and then see if it has voltage where it comes off of the headlight switch (so you disconnect it and put your multimeter from the post you removed it from to ground and see what you get. You did get a multimeter...?)

If you get nothing on that post then it would seem either there is a fuse on the switch that went south, or the switch itself is somehow faulty. Has anyone else replaced a switch because it failed, other than the rheostat?

If that is the case (no voltage for the green line to the brake light switch) I might be tempted, as a temporary measure, to hook it to the same post as the dome lights (or even disconnect the dome light leads... not hardly as important as the brakes...). If fact you might try this swap just for the sake of getting your brake lights to work. You could get some fast and valuable information this way.

Keep us posted!! You are getting close!!

John

[trim code 76]

John,
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now this makes sence! I will check on that fourth single green wire terminal for a reading this week, hopefully on Thurs. and let you know. I have been checking the dome light all this time, learning, learning, learning!! John, did you get a chance to see the license plate I found in the trunk (Post "look what I found in the trunk!"? There is a picture of the plate that says "For 1960, a wounderful new world of fords. Thunderbird". If not check it out!! Is there a way to put the picture in the section that shows all the unusual things found on peoples cars?? Again THANK YOU JOHN!!!

[trim code 76]

If nothing else, I am learning a lot about this part of the electrical circuit. Ok from the electrical diagrams posted in the technical records, I found a 1960 wiring diagram. It shows that there are three green wires coming off the "A" post on the light switch (2nd tab in from the back on the left side). One goes to the neutral safety back up light switch. The next goes to the glove box light (which I have) and the third green wire goes to the stop light switch. This is how mine is set up. Now for the confusing one, on the "D" terminal (which is the farthest back terminal on the left side) I only have one wire coming off (blue). The wiring diagram shows three: two to the right and left door light switches and the other goes to the dome light switch. Confusing! Now acourding to multiple wiring schematics (including this 1960 diagram) There is a green wire that goes from the stop light swithc to the directional indicator switch (one diagram shows that is goes from the headlight switch, to the directional indicator switch TO the stop light switch. Now I am still learning about this stuff, but I had a mechanic tell me that if it was not the stop light switch, then it is the directional indicator switch that is causing the problem as the wire coming (or going) to the stop light switch is always in contact at the directional indicator switch and that this contact can fail and if there is a brake in the circuit then the stop light switch will not recieve any power. He said also that it may be the headlight switch even though I am showing power at the terminal for the brake lights. ANY THOUGHTS???

[LuckyJay]

I am stil convinced that there is an in-line fuse under the dash that feeds the Stop Light switch on the master cyl. It must be hiding really good. But, it's there. Mine was way over to the left of the Fuel\Temp gauge as you look from the front or way to the right if you're looking from behind. It should be a 14 amp.

[vernz]

trim code 76,

Yesterday I was searching around the internet for some information on my 1959 and came across a question and answer on someone else with a brake light problem like yours. The answer given was that brake light power is routed through the turn signal switch and that switch needs repair or replacement. The person providing the answer stated that he had performed that repair many times in the distant past. I'll see if I can find the post again, but I was all over the internet and that might be difficult.

Vern

[JohnG]

This is possible. If you have the turn signal ON on one side AND the brakes ON, then you still want the light to blink on and off, not stay on. They use the same bulb I believe. So the turn signal switch overrides the voltage to that side and allows it to keep blinking.

However, the other brake light should remain on.

The switch has any number of small copper contacts in it that might need to be cleaned. It requires getting the steering wheel off to get to. Doesn't necessarily need replacing (not a fun job due to wires in the column), just overhaul. Requires care and patience if dismantling due to small parts like springs. A large white cloth under the steering column helps...

[trim code 76]

Ok, today I got brake lights. here is how I did it: I unplugged the three green wires on the "A" terminal (by the way, those are for the dome light switches and my glove box, so that should account for all three wires). I tested the reading with the multi tester and got 8, why not 12 which is what the battery get I do not know. I took a wire and went from that lead to the incoming terminal on the brake light switch (took off the wire, had to determin which one was the incoming). When I did this, I got power to the brake lights. What I am thinking is that this bypassed the turn signal switch? hence making that the problem??? I am thinking that is it. Are they reproduced (the turn signal switch)? What do you all think?? Getting closer! HATE ELECTRICAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also, I have a single dark blue wire coming off my "D" terminal, last on the left side, I am guessing that is the brake light wire?? It seams as thought maybe the wires going to the "A" and "D" terminals on the head light switch were switched when the car was put together. Does this make a difference?? And the color of the brake light switch wire should be green but appears to be the dark blue?? Is this common to swithc colors?? With mine being one of the very last ones down the line, could this have made a difference?? Thanks guys!!!!!!!!

[JohnG]

The details of the headlight switch are here:

http://users.wpi.edu/~goulet/TBird/Headlight%20Switch%20Information%20and%20Repairs.htm

Take a couple minutes and read through it; it will help!

IF the turn signal switch is at fault, it is less work to overhaul it than replace it. There are original ones on EBay from time to time; there is one on there now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NOS-FORD-TURN-SIGNAL-SWITCH-1958-60-THUNDERBIRD_W0QQitemZ330271069245QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item330271069245&_trkparms=72%3A727%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245

Now a question: the turn signals ONLY work with the Key On. But the brakes work at all times - key or no key. So if your brake lights did not work with the key Off, that would seem to rule out the turn signal switch. What does anyone else think??

John

[FeFranco]

Okay John, this light switch, I believe, has been a source of many problems. Currently, my dimmer doesn't work. I do NOT want to be the guinea pig and melt all my wiring, but it would be nice, after a late night out, to have dash lights. I have gone through 3 switches and would like to try this short cut. But first, has anybody on this site try this dimmer switch short cut already?

[Guest]

It seems like all the turn signal switch does is cancell the power to the lights when the brakes are on. Get the shop manual and check the colors on your light switch might be bass ackwards who knows!!!

[trim code 76]

I have talked to a few more people who seam to believe that the turn signal switch is the cause. I just won the NOS FoMoCo turn signal switch on ebay (expensive SOB) and will install when I recieve it, ANY TIPS ON THIS LITTLE EXPERIENCE?? Also anyone know why I would have a single BLUE wire coming off the "D" terminal instead of a green wire?? Hopefully this will solve the problem. I believe I have eliminated the light switch since the terminal has power and I was able to get brake lights by stringing a wire from the terminela to the brake light switch. Hope after all this is solved this will help others!! Will keep you guys informed!

[trim code 76]

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!!!!!!!!! For those who stated there was an inline fuse for the solid green wire that supplies the brake switch YOU WERE RIGHT!!! I looked everywhere underneith with mirrors, lights and many little cuts to my fingers and arms. Nothing found. I decided since I had part of the dash appart to take the rest of it appart and take the metal face off so I could see what I was doing. AND THERE IT WAS, A BLACK INLINE FUSE ON THE SOLID GREEN WIRE TUCKED IN THE MST INSAIN LOCATION! IT ACTUALLY CAME OFF THE IGNITION SWITCH FOR SOME REASON. I checked the fuse and sure enough, it was blown! New fuse, now I have lights!!!!!!!! Brake lights that is. This is definiately not in any of the manuals. Sorry for doubting the people who pointed this out. I am now full from eating crow!!!! THANKS AGAIN TO ALL!!!!!! I have taken a pic of the offending item and if someone can tell me how to download it on this website I will be happy to do so. SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!! All 60 bird owners PLEASE MAKE NOTE OF THIS!!!!!!!

[bcomo]

Greg:

Is it possible for you to take a quick photo form the steering wheel position showing that fuse location -- before you get that dash back together? It sure might help others in the future.

[trim code 76]

Yes, I have already taken the picture, I just need to know how to download it onto this website. I am very happy to help others out on this.