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  #81  
Old 05-19-2016, 07:54 PM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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[QUOTE=Examine this TRUCK piston (C8TE.. from a 390 F-100):
Look at the color all around the inside. I heard all the talk about oil and how it runs about 200F. No it doesn't! The only way this piston was cooled was from OIL, bathing the bottom side. All eight of them (pistons) commonly send your oil pan to nearly 300F. QUOTE: DAVE

If you are referring to numbers in my post?; also note that I qualified them with the - as typically measured in the oil pan - where one finds most (not all) temperature sending units installed. I think this is the relevant perspective to most other forum discussions. And yes, many assumptions are made even here, example: a temp. sending unit mounted high vs low in the reservoir may/will register significantly different numbers.

Your observations of the coked oil on the underside of pistons, and conclusion that it must indicate a higher temperature for the effect is correct. But, we could explore 300 values a little. Does oil (especially modern oils) burn & coke down at this temperature, and considering the time element available w/ parts in motion?

The temperature of the oil as it is ejected from the surfaces of the engine components in operation, it is plumbed to (for in this discussion, limiting to it's cooling value, and to avoid some odd scenario, assume normal operating temps & intentions), IS going to be elevated over that - as measured in the pan - no doubt. Otherwise, where is the heat transfer & cooling function here? These temperature values within a singular engine at any one time, will vary greatly based on specific component involved, engine load & R.P.M.s, and include other variables such as state of tune & ambient temps & weather, conditions, etc., to much to conclude here, that's for sure. But, your value of 300 I'm sure is some where in the mix @ some time & place, but, there ARE other values, far higher also.

Oil is a main source of cooling for the pistons, but not only path of heat dissipation. Others include piston-to-rings-to-cylinder wall-to-water jacket, unfortunately, at times, pistons direct contact w/cylinder wall (until, if persists, friction overcomes), incoming air & fuel charge on piston dome, etc. Scott.
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  #82  
Old 05-20-2016, 12:53 AM
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Squrarebirds.org is one of the friendliest sites on the planet. We are dedicated to helping others as set forth by our founder, Alexander.

With all due respect and I'm trying to be tactful as possible, I'm having a hard time understanding your post and I don't see a question. Usually, I can grasp the main idea but parts of this is far beyond me. Let's take it in small bites:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbf777 View Post
If you are referring to numbers in my post?; also note that I qualified them with the - as typically measured in the oil pan - where one finds most (not all) temperature sending units installed. I think this is the relevant perspective to most other forum discussions. And yes, many assumptions are made even here, example: a temp. sending unit mounted high vs low in the reservoir may/will register significantly different numbers.
Classic Thunderbirds only use a coolant temperature sensor in the intake manifold while BabyBirds have one in the right head. Factory oil pan sensors are not relevant to our site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbf777 View Post
Your observations of the coked oil on the underside of pistons, and conclusion that it must indicate a higher temperature for the effect is correct. But, we could explore 300 values a little. Does oil (especially modern oils) burn & coke down at this temperature, and considering the time element available w/ parts in motion?
I'm not quite sure what you are asking. I posted a picture that clearly shows evidence that speaks for itself. The truck was not used for racing and it was not abused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbf777 View Post
The temperature of the oil as it is ejected from the surfaces of the engine components in operation, it is plumbed to (for in this discussion, limiting to it's cooling value, and to avoid some odd scenario, assume normal operating temps & intentions), IS going to be elevated over that - as measured in the pan - no doubt. Otherwise, where is the heat transfer & cooling function here? These temperature values within a singular engine at any one time, will vary greatly based on specific component involved, engine load & R.P.M.s, and include other variables such as state of tune & ambient temps & weather, conditions, etc., to much to conclude here, that's for sure. But, your value of 300 I'm sure is some where in the mix @ some time & place, but, there ARE other values, far higher also.
Maybe I need to go back to school because from all this I have gleaned; oil temps vary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbf777 View Post
Oil is a main source of cooling for the pistons, but not only path of heat dissipation. Others include piston-to-rings-to-cylinder wall-to-water jacket, unfortunately, at times, pistons direct contact w/cylinder wall (until, if persists, friction overcomes), incoming air & fuel charge on piston dome, etc. Scott.
Advancements in alloys has produced the hypereutectic aluminum piston which has a lower coefficient of thermal expansion. This allows engine designers to specify much tighter tolerances that ultimately adds to engine life. Tighter tolerances demand thinner oil viscosities if we can hope for flow and oil cooling. - Dave
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  #83  
Old 05-23-2016, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yadkin View Post
Last night I disassembled everything on the motor and the car is getting towed to Mike's tonight or tomorrow morning, then they'll pull the engine out. His engine builder, David, is going to tear it down and inspect everything...
What did he find?
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  #84  
Old 05-27-2016, 07:39 PM
stubbie stubbie is offline
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Interested to know how you went with the lifters Steve?
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  #85  
Old 05-28-2016, 10:51 PM
Yadkin Yadkin is offline
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Me too. Waiting on engine guy.
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  #86  
Old 05-31-2016, 02:07 PM
Yadkin Yadkin is offline
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Just met with David, Mike's engine guy. The only thing he found was that the rings had not seated properly, and two valve stems were worn. He can find no reason why the lifters failed. Everything else was perfect. The cam looks brand new.

He's going to install valve guides where needed, re-hone the block, install new rings and bearings. The other changes that he recommends, and I just approved, is to smooth out the oil drain back holes in the heads, change to a Lunati base type roller cam to get the smoothest idle, a regular flow high pressure oil pump, a stock type oil pan, and use 5W-30 oil.
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  #87  
Old 06-01-2016, 09:07 PM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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Unfortunately, as I read your post, no conclusion on the failure of the lifters has been established? And, although other tasks have/are being accomplished, the priority reason (lifter failure) for the engine disassembly is going to be ignored, and just hope for the best?

I, can not tell you what the failure is from here, but, based on previous posts explaining your efforts in diagnosing this, may I suggest that you communicate such, and you engine builder's observations to the lifter manufacturer. And not to the first person whom answers the telephone, but hopefully further up the food chain with some-sort of knowledge and capability.

I am hesitant to provide examples of previous experiences, as they may not be directly relevant and may only cloud the factual observations in your case, but, since we have no conclusion to date, allow me.

We had a similar complaint/observation (collapsed after short duration in use) on a new set of hydraulic roller lifters. After lengthy B.S. responses (oil viscosity? etc.) which we said enough! - I finally was forwarded to an engineer in production, who admitted they had been having problems, and in this case, it had been traced to a new water-based machining coolant (E.P.A. got the blame) that was causing corrosion on the micro level on the surface of the body barrel bores during/post machining, and due to improper follow-up procedures, propagated into something that caused the lifters to seize once put into service. Remember, these are very tight clearances in the relationship of the body bore vs. plunger, and there is motion involved in each cycle.

Is this your failure? I didn't say that. But, if you accurately rule out all else, then I would look closely at the lifters themselves and consider the complex execution & function required, and realize that in the current performance-aftermarket lifter supply, you wouldn't be the first dissatisfied customer. Scott.
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  #88  
Old 06-01-2016, 09:42 PM
OX1 OX1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbf777 View Post
Unfortunately, as I read your post, no conclusion on the failure of the lifters has been established? And, although other tasks have/are being accomplished, the priority reason (lifter failure) for the engine disassembly is going to be ignored, and just hope for the best?

I, can not tell you what the failure is from here, but, based on previous posts explaining your efforts in diagnosing this, may I suggest that you communicate such, and you engine builder's observations to the lifter manufacturer. And not to the first person whom answers the telephone, but hopefully further up the food chain with some-sort of knowledge and capability.

I am hesitant to provide examples of previous experiences, as they may not be directly relevant and may only cloud the factual observations in your case, but, since we have no conclusion to date, allow me.

We had a similar complaint/observation (collapsed after short duration in use) on a new set of hydraulic roller lifters. After lengthy B.S. responses (oil viscosity? etc.) which we said enough! - I finally was forwarded to an engineer in production, who admitted they had been having problems, and in this case, it had been traced to a new water-based machining coolant (E.P.A. got the blame) that was causing corrosion on the micro level on the surface of the body barrel bores during/post machining, and due to improper follow-up procedures, propagated into something that caused the lifters to seize once put into service. Remember, these are very tight clearances in the relationship of the body bore vs. plunger, and there is motion involved in each cycle.

Is this your failure? I didn't say that. But, if you accurately rule out all else, then I would look closely at the lifters themselves and consider the complex execution & function required, and realize that in the current performance-aftermarket lifter supply, you wouldn't be the first dissatisfied customer. Scott.
Brand? Production problem fixed?
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  #89  
Old 06-02-2016, 04:35 AM
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Many of our members eagerly awaited your test results because they are fearful of buying defective roller lifters and they truly want a root cause for failure of three sets from different major cam companies.

To our members, rest assured that hydraulic roller cams and lifters have been in our production engines for decades without a single recall. Rockauto.com sells these Sealed Power cams and roller lifters as replacements for these cars:

FORD BRONCO 1992-1993
FORD COUNTRY SQUIRE 1987-1991
FORD E-150 1992-1993
FORD F-150 1992-1993
FORD F-250 1992-1993
FORD LTD CROWN VICTORIA 1985-1991
FORD MUSTANG 1985-1995
FORD THUNDERBIRD 1985-1993
LINCOLN CONTINENTAL 1985-1987
LINCOLN MARK VII 1985-1992
LINCOLN TOWN CAR 1985-1990
MERCURY CAPRI 1985
MERCURY COLONY PARK 1987-1991
MERCURY COUGAR 1985-1993
MERCURY GRAND MARQUIS 1985-1991

This small list represents MILLIONS of cars times 16 lifters each for 8-cyl engines. (6-cyl engines also use roller lifters.) It does not include millions more produced by GM and Chrysler or Ford models past 1993. Believe me, there are MANY lifter manufacturers (not three) because the numbers required are staggering. Hydraulic lifters are common and so are roller lifters again, without recall. Inside the lifter, they are identical to flat tappet but 1/2" taller to accommodate the roller.

Here is a picture of the lifters Rockauto.com sells with their Sealed Power camshafts. The internals are identical to yours with a link:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yadkin View Post
Just met with David, Mike's engine guy. The only thing he found was that the rings had not seated properly, and two valve stems were worn. He can find no reason why the lifters failed. Everything else was perfect...
I'm sorry but this cavalier answer is no consolation for the failure of 48 hydraulic lifters. We asked for disassembly pictures and offered to disassemble a few for free. If you use the same builder, expect the same conclusion for this set of lifters as the last three sets. For your sake I hope he includes a warranty on this rebuild. Most good engine builders offer two years for free. Yes, that includes engines with roller cams. - Dave
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  #90  
Old 06-02-2016, 11:14 AM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OX1 View Post
Brand? Production problem fixed?
Naming a specific brand supplier of components in this instance would do no good, as they are not involved in this scenario, they also claim that the then production difficulties are rectified, and of course many "brands" (particularly lifters) are only repackaged product, and are constantly changing. This also explains why you may purchase product for the same application, but of two different brands, and receive the same results.

I am not aware of how many manufactures of engine lifters there are in the world today, but it isn't many; as the production requirements are exacting, and although volumes are great, volume customers are few. As a matter of fact, in the period of "Squarebirds" Ford did not manufacture lifters but GM did, and Ford was a customer.

The problem today, is that the lifters your buying (FE hyd. roller & others) are a non O.E.M. contract product, of relatively low production, targeted for the aftermarket performance industry. This market generally offers no warranties to consumers and suffers minimal fear/repercussion if the product is somewhat less than ideal (no contract for a million units at risk or recalls), and therefore may use suppliers that would be described as "secondary standard" suppliers to the O.E.s at best.

I not implying that all are bad, it's just that sometimes there are "issues", and it is difficult to discern the good from the bad.

So, establish proper engine building techniques, including measure lifter/bore clearance (all 16!), and in an FE, with possible oil deficiencies to lifters to blame, I would recommend the "high volume" oil pump. Scott.
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