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  #11  
Old 09-28-2018, 11:11 AM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mh434 View Post
Dave
Summit have them listed incorrectly for a truck engine. I checked on the Cloyes website and it confirms the 3029 is for an FE.
Jon
Please do not use Summit or any other mail-order processing outlet as a tech reference, as they notoriously provide inaccurate information, which may prove hazardous to your project and your wallet!

Scott.
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  #12  
Old 09-28-2018, 11:57 AM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
Ok,

Can you weight-match the pistons AND rods as an assembly? Dave

I understand the first two, but I'm not familiar with this procedure, please explain the intent and process?


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Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
After the piston/rod/rings/bearings are bolted together, Do you have a place that can dynamically balance your crankshaft? Dave

Yes, one should have the crankshaft dynamically balanced, but what effect does bolting the reciprocating/revolving components together first have?


Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
I do mine WITH the flex plate and damper pulley ON the crankshaft. - Dave

This would be the correct process, particularly for those assemblies with an intended external imbalance value imparted by such components, such as the Ford "small-blocks". But, for those units such as the Ford FE 352 & 390's which do not carry these counter weight influences, I would prefer to "spin" the crankshaft less these units, acquire the proper balance value, and then add them to the assembly in the balancing process, and establish that they are as intended,....... "neutral", correcting if necessary so as to impart no imbalance value.

Please note, that the above inquiries on my part are do to the many different processes that may be developed by individuals in order to quire the same outcome of others (aka, " there's more than one way to skin-a-cat"), and I'm always interested the procedures adopted by others and explore their validity.

Scott.
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  #13  
Old 09-28-2018, 01:49 PM
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newyear newyear is offline
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Default How to build max-performance Ford FE engines

I have this book and will scan the rest of the pages if it is of any value to the thread
Peter

https://www.cartechbooks.com/
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  #14  
Old 09-28-2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by pbf777 View Post
Please do not use Summit or any other mail-order processing outlet as a tech reference, as they notoriously provide inaccurate information, which may prove hazardous to your project and your wallet!

Scott.
Good advice Scott.
Summit and others are good as “what’s available” websites, but I then always cross check the manufacturer website for fit and purpose.
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  #15  
Old 09-28-2018, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by pbf777 View Post
Please do not use Summit or any other mail-order processing outlet as a tech reference, as they notoriously provide inaccurate information, which may prove hazardous to your project and your wallet!

Scott.
Scott, I hate to say this but most ALL of our vendors are mail order and they are quite reputable. Can a mistake be made? Always, but their speed in fixing the problem separates the men from the boys. Summit is one of the largest speed shops in the USA with retail stores in Ohio, Georgia, Nevada and Texas. They sell high-end products, host professional car shows and races around the country and they have a staff of phone techs that will contact their suppliers and OEMs for you if they don't have answers. I have used them for very large and small orders with great satisfaction.

Our T-Bird houses are also very good for new and used parts to keep our Squarebirds on the road and looking beautiful. I do not hesitate to purchase from well-established online retailers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbf777 View Post
1. I understand the first two, but I'm not familiar with this procedure, please explain the intent and process?

2. Yes, one should have the crankshaft dynamically balanced, but what effect does bolting the reciprocating/revolving components together first have?

3. This would be the correct process, particularly for those assemblies with an intended external imbalance value imparted by such components, such as the Ford "small-blocks". But, for those units such as the Ford FE 352 & 390's which do not carry these counter weight influences, I would prefer to "spin" the crankshaft less these units, acquire the proper balance value, and then add them to the assembly in the balancing process, and establish that they are as intended,....... "neutral", correcting if necessary so as to impart no imbalance value...
Scott, I will explain these but I thought you are an engine builder.

1. After weighing pistons, there are always differences between pistons, albeit small.
After weighing both ends of connecting rods, there are always differences between con rods, albeit small.
When they are assembled with the wrist pins and keepers again, the weight tolerance stack may show a mismatch between piston assemblies. The goal is to make them all weigh the SAME.

I won't explain HOW TO weight-match because you can look it up on the Intenet. Pre-weight matched pistons rarely are in reality. I've also measured pre-fit rings to be too tight in the bore. A tight ring will either score cylinder walls or break. Measure all rings IN their bores, at least 2" deep.

2. When a V8 crankshaft is balanced, all mass must be taken into consideration. Some of it is rotary and the rest is linear because the piston slides in and out of a bore while the crank end rotates. A complete piston assembly called a 'sample' must be submitted with the crankshaft for balancing. We bolt the caps to the rods to keep the bearings in place. We install wrist pin keepers to hold the piston (with rings) and rod together to make a sample piston with all its parts.

Aftermarket pistons rarely ever weigh the same as the originals they replace because of alloy mass and size differences. Consequently, the original crankshaft balance is off, like when new tires replace old ones, they need to be re-balanced.

The "sample piston" must be consistent with ALL pistons in that engine. The guy doing the balance will also add a couple grams for oil riding in the oil ring. We're trying to establish the amount of bob-weights, bolted to the crank. Then, spinning the crank will show two values, the amount of imbalance and where, from the post end of the crank to the flange end. How? Using LVDT's and angle position encoders on each end of the spinning crankshaft cradle.

Production engines come out good but rarely great. A hand-built engine should always be far smoother than stock.

3. Whether a crankshaft is internally or externally balanced, the fact remains that the flex plate and damper pulley ALL rotate together. Consequently, I balance them together for a result that is near perfect which is why my engines run so smooth. In stock engines, the damper pulley and flex plates are separately balanced so again, there is a tolerance stack. Dynamically balancing these rotating parts as an assembly eliminates the stack.

Scott, if these techniques are different from yours and clearly they are different or you would understand them. I'd love to hear how YOU do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mh434 View Post
Dave
Just a quick reply on the timing gear set. Summit have them listed incorrectly for a truck engine. I checked on the Cloyes website and it confirms the 3029 is for an FE.
I’ll respond to your other points later.

Jon
Summit may have a mistake in their listing but I KNOW the gear set I recommended is correct for your application, has equal quality and is cheaper. I am using this gear set right now in a 390. But hey, it's your money and your engine. Looks like you know what you're doing. Good Luck. - Dave
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  #16  
Old 09-29-2018, 12:28 PM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post

2. A complete piston assembly called a 'sample' must be submitted with the crankshaft for balancing. We bolt the caps to the rods to keep the bearings in place. We install wrist pin keepers to hold the piston (with rings) and rod together to make a sample piston with all its parts. - Dave
So, your saying that you hand your machine shop executing the dynamic balancing of the crankshaft (or, as is often referred as to "spin" the crank) one assembly, as you refer to as a "sample", consisting of piston, ring set, gudgeon pin w/ locks, connecting rod, w/ bearings inserts secured, as a singular assembly? And he (not being sexist, just most often in this business) does what with it? This was, and still is, my question.

And yes, I am familiar with most of the equipment and accepted procedures involved in the endeavor, just never experienced this procedure. But, as I stated previously, there may be more than one way to skin the cat, but, just make sure you get the right cat!

Scott.
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  #17  
Old 09-29-2018, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by pbf777 View Post
... just make sure you get the right cat!..
Or in this case, since the crankshaft was balanced for OEM parts, make sure the crankshaft is re-balanced if different-weight parts are used.

It's just exactly the same as when new tires are put on old rims. The only difference is, we can remove more weight from a crankshaft but adding it back requires more work. Those counterbalance (throws) are there to counteract forces (or mass) imposed by the pistons.

If the new pistons are heavier, the crankshaft counterbalance must also be 'more heavy'. In other words, we have to ADD weight to the crankshaft counterbalance. We do that by drilling a hole and welding Mallory Metal into the counterbalance weights (or throws).

If the new pistons are lighter than OEM (which rarely happens) we simply drill or grind more weight out of the corresponding counterweights.

How do we know if more or less counterweight needs to be added or removed? With a 'sample piston', we replicate that weight into the bob-weights, bolt them onto the crankshaft and 'spin it'. If the crankshaft is beyond the limits of balance, in other words the pistons are 'too heavy' for the counterweights, more weight must be added to the counterweights. This usually adds another hundred bucks to the cost of the job.

I've been there with a Y-Block I bored .060" over. The replacement pistons were much heavier, Mallory metal was added, the crank was properly dynamically balanced and now it runs smooth as silk and MUCH stronger.

If you still have questions regarding the 'sample piston' please ask. Never rely on the original balance job. It was done in mass production using archaic methods before computers existed. - Dave





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