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  #61  
Old 06-27-2018, 06:04 AM
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I stand by ALL those statements I posted. If you like, we can go through them one-by-one.
  • If you witnessed lifters interfering with the adjacent lobe then you must agree. The point is, the cam gear driving a distributor gear may simply undulate in either direction which never causes the distributor gear to bind.

  • A camshaft or crankshaft is made of very hard metals. I've been around Diemakers and Engine Plants long enough to know that a stone is always used to highlight and fix protrusions in steel. Not sandpaper, or anything that flexes. A stone. One that is flat. Camshafts and crankshafts are tooled to their approximate size then GROUND with a stone to their precise target size. After any stone work is done, always clean and oil the surface. At Dearborn Engine Plant, our Landis Crankshaft Grinders operate with constant coolant. The coolant is then filtered and re-circulated to all sixteen grinders (eight for main and eight for pin grinding). The same is true for the camshaft grinders. A localized protrusion is easily taken down with a flat stone.

  • I'm baffled by your use of a 'speed handle' as I envision you going 1,800 rpm by hand for 5-10 minutes. No, I use an electric drill motor. Oil pressure starts bypassing through the pressure relief valve if need be. The pump rotors and end plate have OIL between them and those parts are precision ground (with a stone). OMG, I can't shake the 'vision' of you going like mad cranking a brace and 1/4" socket, out of my head. How often do you do this?
I run my oil pump for a while. We had one member who went through about four or five SETS of hydraulic roller lifters right after his overhaul. They were all different brands and all of them seized. I claimed he had dirt. He disagreed and refused to dissect one. Instead, he kept buying more sets of lifters. If he removed the lifter gallery plugs (one at a time) and ran his oil pump for an extended time without moving the crank he might have flushed most of the dirt out. This is NOT the way to clean an engine but he insisted his 390 builder was meticulously clean to a fault. - Dave

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbf777 View Post
Really, are you sure?! Particularly, at the point of the lifter barrels/body being engaged by an adjacent cam lobe (which, I have witnessed more than once)?

Generally, metal cutting or forming tools are preferred, as it is never recommended to use any abrasive grinding material (i.g. sandpaper, stones etc., even Scotchbrite type material, although I understand it has been a somewhat popular practice, particularly in the past) to "work" the bearing surfaces, as some of that abrasive may (will) impinge upon the surface thereby causing damage to the functioning surface relationships when put into service.

Although, I recommend against the practice in the use of the drill motor, preferring the simple "speed-handle" as one is less likely to lean on the tool as engaged, thereby creating an excessive thrust load on the pump rotor and potential scoring damage between it and the pump cover plate.

My purpose is not to be at odds with anyone; but only to present another perspective for consideration. As there are many others whom, I'm sure, would be able to reveal their example of the saying....... "there's more than one way to skin a cat".

Scott.
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  #62  
Old 06-27-2018, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
  • If you witnessed lifters interfering with the adjacent lobe then you must agree. The point is, the cam gear driving a distributor gear may simply undulate in either direction which never causes the distributor gear to bind. DAVE
  • I was attempting to describe a possible result (relevant in the discussion) in the scenario of one failing in the proper assembly of components, not a normal function as the result of intended engineering. Note that the camshaft is not intended to exhibit excessive thrust motion, for a number of reasons (including in this instance, gear alignment relationship), and is controlled within the engineering design.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
  • A camshaft or crankshaft is made of very hard metals. I've been around Diemakers and Engine Plants long enough to know that a stone is always used to highlight and fix protrusions in steel. Not sandpaper, or anything that flexes. A stone. One that is flat. Camshafts and crankshafts are tooled to their approximate size then GROUND with a stone to their precise target size. After any stone work is done, always clean and oil the surface. At Dearborn Engine Plant, our Landis Crankshaft Grinders operate with constant coolant. The coolant is then filtered and re-circulated to all sixteen grinders (eight for main and eight for pin grinding). The same is true for the camshaft grinders. A localized protrusion is easily taken down with a flat stone. DAVE
  • But.........we were not talking about these items, rather I believe you qualified "Bearing inserts are so soft, your finger nail can scratch them", and that was the subject I was responding to.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
  • I'm baffled by your use of a 'speed handle' as I envision you going 1,800 rpm by hand for 5-10 minutes. No, I use an electric drill motor. Oil pressure starts bypassing through the pressure relief valve if need be. The pump rotors and end plate have OIL between them and those parts are precision ground (with a stone). OMG, I can't shake the 'vision' of you going like mad cranking a brace and 1/4" socket, out of my head. How often do you do this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
I run my oil pump for a while. DAVE
And, I understand your confusion, but perhaps you should try it, as one will gather greater "feed-back" (with experience) and the impression of the fact that "all's right" at this juncture in the endeavour.

Also, since your impression is that you need to turn the oil pump at "1800 R.P.M.'s for 5-10 minutes", I would like to ask, why? The start-up procedures for newly built engines often define that one should "prime" the oil system, I don't often see the term "thoroughly flush" used? I guess you won't need to apply any assembly-lube product in the process of the build, as it will be washed away from the intended surfaces before one ever actually starts the engine. But, if one insists, yes I agree, use your drill motor, just don't push down to hard.

As far as the oil pumps components mentioned being "precision ground", well next time, take the cover plate off, and apply it against your lapping block (with proper technique, of course), and then observe this "precision" , we do with every build!

Scott.
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  #63  
Old 06-27-2018, 06:02 PM
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Regarding the broken rolled-pin: is it possibly the drive gear on the distributor shaft is not seated and supported by the engine block?
I.E. the pin is taking all the load of driving the oil pump and the downward forces generated by the cam turning the distributor?
Hopefully this makes sense!
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  #64  
Old 06-27-2018, 07:07 PM
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Answer: YES!

Scott.
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  #65  
Old 06-27-2018, 07:31 PM
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And, in regards to the possible vertical displacement posibilities, to long or deep is the other possibility. This causes the distributor gear to bottom-out against the register in the block, which if when the distributor retaining clamp/fork/hold-down is tighten, if the preload is to great, will cause damage to the gear and the block!

Always, check this relationship when installing new/different distributors, as it is a common problem of mispositioned gear installations with the non-O.E.M. (original) distributor units.

Scott.
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  #66  
Old 06-28-2018, 12:35 AM
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Tom, you're mighty close in your thinking. Scott brought your idea to the next step:

A distributor gear installed too low? Hmmm... That's the best cause I've heard so far. That begs another question: Who installed the gear on the distributor? If it was a novice, this is certainly a possibility and yes, the 'noise' would come from the distributor. Bottom line: The distributor's hold-down bolt drove the housing down, the gear mashed against the block (causing resistance) and the weakest link was the roll pin in the distributor gear. There is another roll pin in the collar, on the bottom of the distributor housing. That needs to be checked as well as wear on the aluminum housing.

Freedom of movement could have been checked by turning the rotor by hand and feeling the gear lash. It isn't much but a bind would present itself.

Scott, when a drill motor is used to run the pump, no downward pressure is needed other than simple gravity, that naturally exerts downward force. I use a variable speed drill motor (as most are today). For every motion there is an equal and opposite motion, which is how I can feel the oil pump's resistance. If a problem poses itself, I would know it as it happens.

Ford engine plants run their assembled engines in what we call 'the cold test'. A pneumatic motor engages the rear of the crankshaft while the newly assembled engine is still on its fixture. The engine only has oil as no heat will be produced. As the engine is turned at a healthy pace, resistance is monitored and data is computed for that engine.

If 'something is wrong', the engine is torn down by hand, in an offline area called, EBUT (Engine Build Up and Teardown). Each engine has an associated plastic 'tray' where all the parts are laid out in separate partitions for QC Inspectors. Looking at the tray, everyone knows exactly where each part 'lived' in the engine.

If all is well, the engine advances to 'Hot Test' where it runs on a mini dyno carousel with a dozen other engines running simultaneously.

Now you know why I run the pump for so long. BTW, the bottom plate on oil pumps is not a cheap sheet metal stamping. It is a heavy gauge plate, hardened and ground. The fastening bolts are case hardened to grade-8. Before any damage, a huge amount of downward pressure would need to be exerted. Most intermediate driveshafts don't butt up on the ends but have room to move with expansion and contraction.








These score marks didn't come from a grinding wheel, They were caused by abrasive dirt and junk in the oil that got past the pickup screen. All oil goes through the pump BEFORE it gets bypassed or filtered.

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  #67  
Old 06-28-2018, 06:13 AM
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Thanks for all the input.

The distro came with the gear on it. it measured the same as the FoMoCo one as far as alignment on the shaft. i do think that the tolerance was a bit wide considering i could slide the gear up and down after it broke. as in it was not pressed onto the shaft.

My thoughts were if any bearing is damaged i would need to check the rest of them. just a thought.

Just trying to think of the best use of my time and resources.
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  #68  
Old 06-28-2018, 01:59 PM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
BTW, the bottom plate on oil pumps is not a cheap sheet metal stamping. It is a heavy gauge plate, hardened and ground.
[DAVE
Actually, in this application (but which will also include most S.B.F., 335's, 385's & others), the plates that I have encountered often are of cast material, most likely described as of an iron alloy definition (just whack one with your hammer, it will break-up quite easily). I believe one of the reasons this material is utilized (other than cost) verses steel plate, is that it is less susceptible to warpage when machined.

The reason we will hand lap the cover plates is that upon inspection one will rarely find it to be truly flat, at least not within our self imposed regulation. I am not knowledgeable of the exact manufacturing process, but the results appear consistent with the pump cover plates being located by a magnetic surface plate, and ground for relative flatness. Unfortunately, this process invokes a certain surface tension due to the tearing of the metal and displacement of the surface by the grinding stone (perhaps, there are other tooling possibilities), and of course heat imparted in the process; all of which even with the best reasonable efforts to avoid, particularly in this engineered shape, lends to the warpage as experienced.

As far as hardness (a somewhat relative term), I have found them to be "relatively" soft; again, take one and work it some, and decide for your self.

I feel we may have deviated somewhat from the original path of this thread, but perhaps still, it may aid in a better understanding of the components involved.

Scott.

Last edited by pbf777 : 06-28-2018 at 02:47 PM.
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  #69  
Old 06-28-2018, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthSRT10 View Post
........... it measured the same as the FoMoCo one as far as alignment on the shaft.
Perhaps you would explain what you referenced and how you measured. Also some research can provide the proper reference values for comparison.

Quote:
i could slide the gear up and down after it broke. as in it was not pressed onto the shaft.
This was and inquiry previously, as if the relationship between the gear and shaft does not present a reasonable interference fitment, the requirement in service upon the pin is excessive!

Scott.
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  #70  
Old 06-28-2018, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbf777 View Post
...the plates that I have encountered often are of cast material, most likely described as of an iron alloy definition (just whack one with your hammer, it will break-up quite easily)...

...As far as hardness (a somewhat relative term), I have found them to be "relatively" soft;..
Scott, it can't be brittle and soft at the same time. That is impossible. The end plates I worked with were hard and ground flat. Cast iron is hard and it will shatter as well. The pump in my pictures is 1973 OEM. The 'SP' in the plate are well-defined and probably not cast into the metal. - Dave
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