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  • simplyconnected
    Administrator
    • May 26 2009
    • 8779

    Originally posted by Eric S
    ...They said to install the arm and shims as needed to remove any fore and aft movement.
    That is where I understood re-install the shims you removed before...
    Glad you're straight, now. It stands to reason that not every bushing is identical so there must be some provision for compensation. There is. That's where the shims come in. You many need to take one out or add one because you are removing one set and adding another. This is not a case where the original shims are exactly right for your new installation. The very last thing you want is sloppy bushings after they are tight. Take care of this NOW, before your spring is replaced. Use a long prybar to shove the lower control arm towards the rear as you add your shims to the front.

    BTW, all Squarebirds have the same suspension (with identical part numbers) so the picture is good for all years. - Dave
    Member, Sons of the American Revolution

    CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

    "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
    --Lee Iacocca

    From: Royal Oak, Michigan

    Comment

    • Eric S
      Super-Experienced

      • Jun 10 2018
      • 1054

      2 points I still need to make clear :

      1.
      Anyone can remind me how/where to install this "washer" that goes on the end of the steering power cylinder. Being too small, it do not "cap" the nut. (replacement parts on top, originals on bottom)

      2.
      I made a drawing where I hope I pointed the right values to the rights nuts.
      However I still have the following which I can not locate :
      Idler Arm to Bracket and Rod Nuts 50-60 FtLbs
      Idler Arm Bushing to Idler Arm Rod Bolt 85-100 FtLbs
      Idler Arm Bushing to Idler Arm Bracket Bolt 85-100 FtLbs

      I would say the 1st one might be the nuts on top of Idler Arm (where I initially used 85-100 value on the drawing) ?
      Attached Files

      Comment

      • jopizz
        Super-Experienced


        • Nov 23 2009
        • 8316

        I never use a torque wrench on the idler arm bolts because of the castle nut. As long as the slot in the nut lines up with the hole in the arm and the cotter pin goes in easy it's tight enough. As for the bolts that hold the bracket to the frame 25-30 lbs is correct. When it comes to rebuilding engines and suspension bolts I always use the torque specs. When it comes to most other things I go by feel.

        John
        Last edited by jopizz; October 25, 2018, 10:40 AM.
        John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

        Thunderbird Registry #36223
        jopizz@squarebirds.org 856-779-9695

        https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

        Comment

        • Eric S
          Super-Experienced

          • Jun 10 2018
          • 1054

          Dave

          do I understood well that both uper and lower bushings need to be pushed all the way until the shoulder (ie larger diameter ring) comes into contact with the arm?
          Especially on the upper arm bushings, I do not stop at the first shoulder (ie slightly larger diameter on the bushing body)?

          Comment

          • simplyconnected
            Administrator
            • May 26 2009
            • 8779

            Eric, this will make better sense when you assemble the pivot shaft. Good pictures of the original setup will reveal an air gap between the control arm and the bushing flanges. These bushings do NOT seat all the way to the flange. They stop at the 'step' because the step (or shoulder) is too large to fit inside the control arm hole.

            When you insert new bushings in the upper control arm, the pivot shaft must be inserted FIRST, so it is trapped between both bushings. You will see that the bushings will stop on the pivot shaft before the outer shell flanges go too far. I normally start the first bushing, insert the shaft, start the opposite bushing, then I alternate as I drive the bushings in. Then, it will make sense to you.

            (My 1955 Ford has pivot shafts that are longer in front than in the rear, measured from the frame bolt holes. I stamp them (front-top RH, front-top LH) before removing so I assemble correctly. I believe your pivot shafts are equal and hard to get wrong.)

            These bushings should be rather hard to remove and hard to insert into the control arm holes. Again, the bushing's outer shell should be solid to the arm and the inner shell (surrounding the bolt) should be solid so it does not turn when tightened. All rotation is done within the urethane. That makes the car 'float' on urethane.

            When I remove an old bushing, I heat the rubber with a propane torch and let the inner shell 'melt' out. Do this outside. What remains is a bare outer shell in the control arm. To remove that, I carefully saw the sheet metal shell from inside the hole with a hacksaw blade. Be careful not to saw the control arm. The saw cut relieves tension which allows me to collapse the shell, folding it inside the hole. Hope this is clear. I have a press but I no longer use it for control arm bushings because it isn't needed. - Dave
            Member, Sons of the American Revolution

            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
            --Lee Iacocca

            From: Royal Oak, Michigan

            Comment

            • Eric S
              Super-Experienced

              • Jun 10 2018
              • 1054

              Thank you. It will probably makes sense but I prefer to ask questions before so I am not stuck when trying to do the work with no idea of what to do. I like to get a good picture beforehand.
              Glad you are here to help.

              I understand that bushings will hold the inner shaft and depth will be limited by the shaft then. So shaft and inner bushing will be solid and arm will rotate on the urethane. I got you there.
              Old bushings has been already melted and saw per previous advise on the forum.
              Arm has been painted and everything is ready to go. Inner Shafts seems to be the same but I stamped them L and R just to make sure.
              I made tools to press the first bushing in (mere collars). I just have to come up with an idea to make a tool to continue holding inside while I press outside when the shaft will be in place.

              Comment

              • Eric S
                Super-Experienced

                • Jun 10 2018
                • 1054

                Well
                lower arm bushings are in.
                Upper arms are causing problem.

                We tried to press them. Pressing from one end of 1 bushing to the other end of the other bushing, the arm crushes.

                Here is the setup I made trying in a vise. But as the inner shaft prevent the set up to be lowered in the vise, we press out of line.

                Any smart idea there?
                Attached Files

                Comment

                • simplyconnected
                  Administrator
                  • May 26 2009
                  • 8779

                  Originally posted by Eric S
                  ...We tried to press them. Pressing from one end of 1 bushing to the other end of the other bushing, the arm crushes...
                  Originally posted by simplyconnected
                  ...When I remove an old bushing, I heat the rubber with a propane torch and let the inner shell 'melt' out...
                  ...I have a press but I no longer use it for control arm bushings because it isn't needed.
                  Now you know why I don't use a press. There are many ways to do this work. I explained my way in great detail. That's all I can do. Looks like you took a different direction and tried it your way. I hope you can un-crush your control arm. - Dave
                  Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                  CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                  "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                  --Lee Iacocca

                  From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                  Comment

                  • Eric S
                    Super-Experienced

                    • Jun 10 2018
                    • 1054

                    Sorry but I dont see where you detailed your set up using a vise* and I dont see how to do but I will find out one way or the other.
                    Arm is not crushed as we saw the problem before crushing it!
                    Again this is for installing BACK the new bushings. Old ones has been burned...

                    *EDIT
                    Only now when I spent some time reading old posts I found that you are using a Hammer and "pipe nipple"...
                    Last edited by Eric S; November 1, 2018, 01:58 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Eric S
                      Super-Experienced

                      • Jun 10 2018
                      • 1054

                      On the lower arms, I pressed them all the way to the shoulder as advised and I have to drive them back a little bit as the arm do not fit between the cross members...
                      I should be able to end up with no Shims.

                      Comment

                      • simplyconnected
                        Administrator
                        • May 26 2009
                        • 8779

                        Originally posted by Eric S
                        ...*EDIT
                        Only now when I spent some time reading old posts I found that you are using a Hammer and "pipe nipple"...
                        That's right, I don't use a vise.

                        Sometimes, I use TWO hammers, one as a 'back up'. This is 'bull work' which requires physical strength. The hammers I use are four or five POUND hammers. The 'shock' from each hammer blow allows me to 'finesse' each bushing. In other words, if the setup is cocked to one side, I can immediately correct with the next hammer strike. A vise or a press will not allow for correction unless you work it like a hammer.

                        These bushings are made of sheet metal not solid steel. Sheet metal 'gives' as it goes in. The control arm holes are also 'extruded' holes meaning, they are folded over as they are formed in the press. So, the bushing is held in a 'sleeve' rather than a sheared hole. After being in there fifty years, extraction may be difficult but insertion should be easier after you clean the control arm holes.

                        You may use a thin fil of lubrication like very light oil (WD-40) or old brake fluid; something that will evaporate and go away.

                        In the time it took to write this, I could have installed both upper bushings. Nothing about this is technical because it's a 'round peg in a round hole'. I do the whole job by myself on my bench and outside on the driveway.

                        BTW, show me more pictures but make your pictures larger (between 600-800 DPI wide). I couldn't see what was in your last one at 250 DPI. - Dave
                        Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                        --Lee Iacocca

                        From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                        Comment

                        • Eric S
                          Super-Experienced

                          • Jun 10 2018
                          • 1054

                          So after a days work the lower arms are in place.
                          No shims required. I simply adjusted with the bushings as I had to take them slightly back to fit the assembly.
                          So I adjusted for a tight fit, locked the arm in place and then unscrew finger tight the screws so the arms can move freely until the car is on its wheels.

                          Now the uppers.
                          After a good numer of hammer strikes, 2 hits in the hand, I went to a local shop with bigger hammers and it do not goes in any better.
                          I removed with a dremel tool all the remains of paint I applied when repainted and went to bare metal on 1 arm (the other had bushings too deep already) Did not changed anything.

                          Now, the bushings are all the way to the shoulder (not the flange) and I still have about 10mm/.40" of available space on the inner shafts.
                          I am at a place where I can not drive the bushings more (The local shop said they can use a press but they felt it was all the way in) but the inner shaft still moves left to right.
                          So what am I missing there again???

                          I assume both sleeves of the bushings are glued to the urethane core. That means I'd have to buy 1 more bushing at least as I had one inner sleeve moved out by 1/8".
                          Last edited by Eric S; November 2, 2018, 11:30 AM.

                          Comment

                          • simplyconnected
                            Administrator
                            • May 26 2009
                            • 8779

                            Originally posted by Eric S
                            So after a days work the lower arms are in place.
                            No shims required. I simply adjusted with the bushings as I had to take them slightly back to fit the assembly...
                            No, that's NOT how it works and Ford Motor Company says shims ARE required. Those bushings need to be driven all the way to their stops. If you don't, the bushings may become sloppy and you will do this job over. The shims are inserted BEFORE the spring goes in. Follow the instructions in the Shop Manual because they are important to maintain your safety.

                            With regards to your upper bushings, compare your new bushings to your old. They should be nearly identical. As such, they should fit the same. Maybe you changed the geometry of the upper arm with your press. I don't know but it fit before and it should fit again. The bushings need to be tight in their holes. Again, they are made of sheet metal that 'gives' as they are pounded in. That means they squeeze down in diameter.

                            The rubber is not glued in the bushing, it is vulcanized to the steel to prevent the rubber and steel from separating. How could you have an inner sleeve move out unless it was torn out? Once the urethane is separated from the steel the bushing cannot be used because further tearing will change your front end alignment. You should look for a shop with more experience because this job is not technical. - Dave
                            Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                            --Lee Iacocca

                            From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                            Comment

                            • Eric S
                              Super-Experienced

                              • Jun 10 2018
                              • 1054

                              There is no room for shims. To use shims Will require To push bushings back. I Will mesure old bushings and shims...

                              Re. Upper
                              I Will check old ones but do I have to push bushings to the shoulder or PASS IT?

                              Inner sleeve moved because I held shaft in vise while pounding on bushing. Tried this wrong method trying to find solutions after the hammer method failled to pass the shoulder.

                              It's probably really simple and I am missing something obvious.

                              Comment

                              • Eric S
                                Super-Experienced

                                • Jun 10 2018
                                • 1054

                                Sorry for previous too small picture but the system asked me for a 140Kb max size so I had to reduce it.
                                Don't know why today it works on larger files...

                                On the lower arms, the original bushings had positive shoulder stops and were held with the flange away from the arm.
                                So that left room for shims.

                                On Bird Nest's replacements we have "many protrusions that ARE a shoulder stop. (They also prevent the outer shell from rotating.)"
                                So they require to be pushed in the arm or they will do nothing at preventing rotation.
                                If I take them BACK to allow room for shims the protrusions will be out.
                                So where is the point to have shims?
                                Manual says "install shims as needed to remove fore and aft movement". So what happen if we have no movement?
                                Manual do not say that we NEED to have shims.

                                Pictures shows bushings in place with finger tight bolts and bushings resting against cross members.
                                Attached Files
                                Last edited by Eric S; November 3, 2018, 05:43 AM.

                                Comment

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