Help! Power window conversion question...

[Autorestomod]

OK, first an explanation:
I am Jeff Ford, former editor for Legendary Ford Magazine. I now run a YouTube show on car restoration called Autorestomod. I need some help from the wise minds here at Squarebirds.

Here is the question. I have a two wire power window motor that I am using in our project '67 Mustang; I assume that on a two wire system, the motor is grounded to the chassis.

Can I use the three wire '64 Thunderbird switch to operate the windows? Using the yellow wire for "up" and the red wire for "Down" and the black wire for power?

The reason for all this is that we're installing Deluxe interior in the Mustang and I like the look of the '57-'64 Bird switch and escutcheon plate--it fits perfectly in the escutcheon dimple on the padded door.

I've tried the '57 switch with zero success. NO idea how that would need to be wired to the two wire motor.

ideas? Thoughts?

Help?

[REM]

Not sure about the motor you have but most factory 2 wire motors use one wire for power and one for ground and switch them with the switch them to rerverse the motor.

[Autorestomod]

Thanks for the reply. The windows are Electric Life.

[GTE427]

Jeff,

Welcome and I sure do miss LFM. Glad to see you posting.

Dave Dare [aka simplyconnected] has written and posted very useful diagrams that I'll supply the links to.

Dave illustrated the different DC window motors and their connections, both for 3 wire and 4 wire. I'm not familiar with a 2 wire motor circa 1967, is it grounded thru the case and not a GND (-) wire or the motor has permanent magnates, maybe the switch changes the polarity to the armature. Would have to look at some diagrams for the 67 Mustang to understand what you have.

Look at the attached thread, post 18 is were Dave starts to explain the different motors.

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10478&highlight=window+motor&page=2

Second, the attached write up with diagrams. The third diagram down for the 3 wire DC motor, the 5th or final diagram for the 4 wire DC motor.

http://www.squarebirds.org/picture_g...C%20Motors.pdf

Hope this gets you started, someone else will come along and provide the answer if I haven't.

[Autorestomod]

GTE,
Thanks, I really miss LFM too. But all of us are doing OK now, I really like what I'm up to.

The windows are aftermarket modern 2-wire style for '67 Mustang from electric life:

http://www.electric-life.com/shopexd.asp?id=1068

The motor has two leads coming off of it.

[simplyconnected]

Jeff, you have a permanent magnet (field) motor, typical of modern window motors (like Denso brand).

REM is right about the two armature leads... to reverse this motor, the leads must be reversed. That means you cannot tie one lead to ground after the switch. If you do, the motor will only rotate in one direction.

Can you use this type? Sure, but you will need a means to switch the leads.

I need to ask a very important question... how many switches will control the passenger's window? Squarebirds use one switch, on the console (so either passenger can operate either window). The difference will be apparent in the wiring conversion to your type of motor because you need 'interlock', meaning, one kid can push his switch up while the other kid pushes his switch down; the circuit won't short-circuit and the fuse won't blow.

You have two choices. Either you can use a switch with five connections on each (like a modern Ford), or you can use the old 'classic' style switches with two relays for each motor, one for UP and the other for DN.

So, to answer your question directly, you may use the '64 switches but they must energize two relays that YOU wire and install. I will draw the schematic if you like. Also, you need overcurrent protection (either a fuse or Circuit Breaker) for your moving door wires. This means the fuse must be in the dash, not in the door.

Will you be using door-mounted courtesy lights, power door locks or power mirrors? I'm only asking to anticipate the number of wires in your driver's door harness. - Dave Dare

[GTE427]

According to electric-life website, they supply reverse-polarity motors. Two Arm wires, permanent magnets. In their FAQ tab, they've addressed older cars that are wired for 3 wire motors, I've attached this below.

You can either work with Electric_life or accept Dave's offer to provide more information. Let us know how the installation works out.

• I have a set of the original power window switches and original wiring harness; will they work with your system?

If the switches come from a vehicle originally equipped with reverse polarity motors, than the wiring harness can easily be adapted to our system. Most vehicles produced after 1980 come with reverse polarity motors.

• I have an early model vehicle with the original wiring can I use it with your system?

Chances are that your vehicle came equipped with the old 3 wire motor system. In that case, you would have to add relays to make it work. We can supply the relays and a wiring diagram, but this type of conversion should be left up to professional installers.

[Autorestomod]

Connected,
I was looking at the '64 switches because they were still using a '57 "style" bezel. I have '57 T-bird switches in the shop now. I'd have to order the '64 switches. And would if you said I needed to.

I plan to have a drivers side single switch in the door (using the '57 bezel and if possible the '57 switch I already have), a single switch in the passenger door and a hidden switch in the ash tray (or somewhere close by the driver) so the driver can roll down the passenger window without reaching across the car (too old an fat).

The car already has the courtesy light group, and we are adding a Custom AutoSound Secret Audio Stereo system and using the door speaker location on the car.

So in short form on the windows:
Electric Life Power windows for '67 Mustang
1 '57 passenger side switch and bezel (drivers side)
1 '57 passenger side switch and bezel (drivers side)
1 '57 passenger side switch (hidden in the ashtray)

The only reason I hope to use the '57 switches is...well...I already have them here. If I need to convert to '64 I will, just rather keep the money in the bank.

[Autorestomod]

According to electric-life website, they supply reverse-polarity motors. Two Arm wires, permanent magnets. In their FAQ tab, they've addressed older cars that are wired for 3 wire motors, I've attached this below.

You can either work with Electric_life or accept Dave's offer to provide more information. Let us know how the installation works out.
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We'll cover this on the show for sure. I'm not the first person to go here, and I doubt I'll be the last. i'll also give Squarebirds the credit for the info on the show!

[simplyconnected]

The '57 switches will work just as well as the '64.

The only difference is the '57 switches supply power to the armature and the fields. You will use three of the five switch connections (one in and two out for UP and DN).

Straight or reverse polarity makes no difference because two-wire motors do not use a case ground.

Using relays is the way to go because it lightens the load on the switches. Relay coils use less than 1/4-amp to energize. The contacts supply motor current. So now you have a small switch controlling a large load with no danger of ever burning the switch, even if the motor shorts to ground from overheating or abuse.

For your ash tray switch, you may use a simple $3, Double Throw, Single Pole (DPST)-center off toggle switch.

[Autorestomod]

Can you give me the relay part numbers? And a diagram using the '57 switches. I can do a nice illustration for the Squarebirds tech section if you want. I'll also give the Square a nice plug on the episode.

You said the relays will need to be in the car, correct?

I can't express enough how much this has lightened my mental load. I really appreciate all your help. I remember you all being a great bunch from LFM, things haven't changed.

[Autorestomod]

Also, how many relays per window...OK I feel like I'm getting annoying...

[simplyconnected]

Can you give me the relay part numbers? And a diagram using the '57 switches. I can do a nice illustration for the Squarebirds tech section if you want. I'll also give the Square a nice plug on the episode.

You said the relays will need to be in the car, correct?,..

Yes, the relays should be in the dash (instrument panel), they should be of the plug-in type for ease of maintenance, and each motor needs two, one for UP and the other for Down.

We usually size relay contacts to handle TWICE the load because starting an 'at rest' motor requires 400% of Full Load Amps until the motor starts motion. We call this, "Locked-Rotor Current". This may be too technical for your purposes, so let's put it this way... if the motor draws 5-amps, use a relay with 10-amp contacts. 12-volt, 10-amp relays are available on eBay (and everywhere else) WITH sockets and pigtails for under $4 each. Here's an example of 10 for $3.50 each to your door.

You will use at least four just for the front windows and four more if you have electric rear windows. These relays may be used to switch an electric fan, too. I would mount them under the dash where you can get to them if you ever need to (like they do with burgular alarm boxes). There is nothing wrong with using Ty-raps to secure. You can always cut the ties if you need them to hang down for maintenance, and re-Ty-rap when you're done.

I'll draw your schematic in another post. - Dave

[simplyconnected]

Here is the schematic for ONE window motor. I tried making it as simple to understand as possible. It operates like a 3-way switch but in this case, it also switches DC current to reverse the motor. This scheme allows both relays to energize at the same time, which disconnects motor power safely.

Instead of color-coding, I number my wires for ease of maintenance and troubleshooting.



Buy the 5-wire type of automotive relays and sockets (w/pigtails). They are SPDT, giving one N.O and one N.C. contact with a 'common' wire (just like the diagram illustrates). Bone yards throw these out on a daily basis because all modern cars use them. You may find sockets at your local auto parts store.

All spring-centered window switches have this configuration, and some have more features, with more contacts. You only need to use three leads. Which three? Get your meter out and check. You will find a 'common', a N.O., and a N.O. contact.

Remember, you need to determine which side of the switch toggle will energize the 'UP' relay. Also, if your UP relay is energized and the motor runs backwards, switch the motor leads.

I don't have part numbers for you, but they really aren't necessary. If you have any questions, let me know. - Dave Dare

[Autorestomod]

Got it! Thanks for all the help!