352 camshaft removal

[pbf777]

Are the hole locations for the thrust plate blanked / plugged on a 352 ? I have compared my photo to your 390 build and it looks like the location to drill is there, just needs drilling and tapping. Any steer on how deep to go ?Jon

Yes, the locations for the holes in the block are presented by Ford; one is the passenger side lifter oil gallery passage and the other is to the lower drivers' side from the camshaft center, the drilled oil passage to the lower distributor pilot shaft, both welch pluged in the earlier FE's.

The original thrust-plate retaining fasteners (2) were of 7/16" x 14 thread approx. 5/8" in length w/ lock washer added, w/ modified Fillister style w/ Phillips drive head. Note that adequate tread engagement may not be available for the original fastener due to the relief machined into the face of the block at the galleries to accept the welch plugs.
Also note, if using a non OEM fastener system, pay particular attention for sufficient clearance to timing chain gear!

Scott.

[mh434]

That’s great, thanks Scott
Are the thrust plates common to all 390’s ? A mustang vendor close to me in the U.K. lists pn C3TZ-6269-A thrust plate 390-428 (67 - 70 Mustang). Biggest issue looks to be getting the right fixings that clear the back of the sprocket.

Jon

[simplyconnected]

Dave

Are the hole locations for the thrust plate blanked / plugged on a 352 ? I have compared my photo to your 390 build and it looks like the location to drill is there, just needs drilling and tapping. Any steer on how deep to go ?

Jon

This topic was discussed by Alexander back in 2004 when they were looking for a faster cam:

It would be difficult to find a performance camshaft for the pre-1963 thrust button camshaft retention system. They are available for about $150 from many Thunderbird part suppliers. I warn you to get the timing gear as a set with the camshaft, since there are apparently two different spacings of the interlock peg. I bought a new camshaft to replace the used one on the rebuilt engine I had, but the camshaft would not fit the new timing gear that was on the engine. Frustration.

The engine can be machined for the post-1963 thrust plate system. This system uses a camshaft with a different face than the thrust button type of camshafts. The timing gears are also different.

If you go for the thrust plate system, a wealth of camshaft options are available to you, including the ones from Carroll Shelby. They also have a large amount of FE parts that fit our engine that are hard to get otherwise. I bought a damper spacer and block to head dowels from them. These are new parts that are next to impossible to get elsewhere. http://www.carrollshelbyent.com/engine_order_form.cfm .

Steve Christ's book on rebuilding FE engines is an excellent reference for doing any work on these engines. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...48742?v=glance

Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top

The 352, 390 and 427 blocks are nearly identical except for bore diameters. So yes, the same thrust plate is used on all FE engines. You can use the thrust plate to verify exact location for the new holes. Both holes are 'clearance' holes, not 'blind' holes. Here's an example:





These screws are OEM. I have used 7/16" socket head screws as well. A hex head is too wide and will scrape the cam sprocket. It's easy enough to fit and verify the bolts, even if you need to grind a little bit off the bolt head. - Dave

EDIT: Questions arose about which thrust plate to buy and who has it. The one pictured is an OEM C3AZ 6269-A (with a longer oil notch). I don't see these anywhere but they have been superceded by D3TZ 6269-A which has the exact same dimensions except the oil notch is shorter. The purpose of the notch is to lubricate the back side of the cam sprocket. With no notch, oil would seal-off lubrication flow. I suppose the newer part is ok.

Jegs carries this part for ten bucks. They call it part # 555-300514 and it is .165" thick. It is configured so that it cannot be installed backwards.

FE engines before 1963-1/2 did not use the thrust plate. This is odd to me. Y-block engines used the thrust plate very successfully from 1954-62. Then, Ford went to the button cam setup on FE engines from 1958-1963-1/2, only to revert back to the thrust plate and never to return to the button. So you see, Ford made changes to the FE but the vendors don't support the first FE's (like Squarebird engines). They support the more popular and modern FE engines (with thrust plates).

Button Cam Retrofit2.jpg

[mh434]

Thanks Dave

Much appreciated

Jon

[Woobie]

Dave

Assuming the current cam is ok I was intending to keep it. I'm not intending to rebuild it into a fire breathing road monster, just a good reliable (oil tight hopefully) usable motor.

Jon

The business that I listed earlier, Oregon Camshafts, can rebuild your original camshaft. Emails are cheap if you decide to inquire as to their ability and costs.

[Astrowing]

I did not locate a true roller chain for my 58, so ended up going with an original type chain. I left my camshaft alone.

[mh434]

I pulled the cam out this afternoon, came out quite easily, biggest issue was trying not to crash it into the bearings on the way out!

I have bought a thrust plate, but when I offer it up to the block and line it up with the welch plugs the cam bearing and the hole in the thrust plate are not concentric . Does that seem right ? It’s quite a noticeable offset. I tried it every which way round but couldn’t get the holes to line through. If anyone has done the conversion , or can shed some light on it I would be grateful. Maybe if you have a spare thrust plate lying around you would be able to measure from the edge of each fixing hole to the edge of the centre hole.
Thanks

Jon

[pbf777]

I tried it every which way round......... Jon

Now, flip it over?

Scott.

[mh434]

Did that, makes the offset even worse...

[simplyconnected]

Yes, the locations for the holes in the block are presented by Ford; one is the passenger side lifter oil gallery passage and the other is to the lower drivers' side from the camshaft center, the drilled oil passage to the lower distributor pilot shaft, both welch pluged in the earlier FE's...

...I have bought a thrust plate, but when I offer it up to the block and line it up with the welch plugs the cam bearing and the hole in the thrust plate are not concentric . Does that seem right ? It’s quite a noticeable offset...

Jon, you have been given wrong information. I posted a couple pictures but they are not 'straight-on' shots. Here is one that may make more sense The arrows show the oil galleries. The thrust plate location is now plain to see:

Also note, the thrust plate holes are open on the back side (not blind holes). - Dave

[mh434]

Dave
I may have confused things a bit with my earlier post. I am lining the plate up with the two holes in your photo (at roughly the 11 and 4 o’clock position on the machined face) if I were to remove the two plugs, drill and tap and bolt the plate on the hole in the plate would be off centre of the camshaft end bearing. I’m hoping someone can measure their thrustplate so I can see if mine has been manufactured wrong.

Jon

[simplyconnected]

There is no confusion. You may need to remove ONE plug, not two. The other hole needs to be drilled and tapped. The thrust plate only covers a 'lip' of the cam hole.

When I took the first two pictures my engine was turned on the engine stand, nearly upside down. That's because I installed the cam before the crankshaft was installed. That way I could reach my hand inside and gently guide the cam lobes across the bearings without scraping the bearing surfaces.



The plate is designed to install one way only. Align the cam hole with the plate hole and turn the plate. You will see where the new hole should be drilled. - Dave

[pbf777]

The arrows show the oil galleries.

Also note, the thrust plate holes are open on the back side (not blind holes). - Dave

In the photo, (Ata boy, DAVE!) the upper passenger side (11 o'clock) threaded bolt hole for the camshaft thrust plate is also the passenger side lifter oil gallery; the lower drivers' side (4 o'clock) threaded hole (no red arrow) is also the oil gallery/passage to the lower pilot extension on the distributor, as I correctly stated previously. Look at the photo, as one can see, at the base of the well (4 o'clock), the reduced diameter passage intersecting the vertical boring which receives said shaft to provide lubrication for the shaft & the distributor/cam gears, and this is why they are "not blind holes". The thrust plate cap screws act as the oil gallery plugs for both (as seen in the photo), where the earlier non-thrust plate applications have welch plugs. I'm not aware of these galleries and or their dependent componentry being relocated for the convenience of providing drillings for the thrust plate?

Also, be aware of the cross gallery drilling providing passage of oil from the front cam bearing to the 4 o'clock passage, as too long a fastener here will potentially restrict this oil delivery.

Is your "new" thrust plate a Ford original or "repop", perhaps this is a problem? The center hole, how far off-center is it?

Scott.

[pbf777]

BTW, just-a-tip, also taking advantage of the photos provided by DAVE, perhaps of his own build?; it's generally accepted as being wise to not use the press-in type oil gallery plugs as originally intended by Ford, but rather tap these oil gallery passages for screw-in plugs, even if one wishes to declare "I never had one fall-out!" (I have witnessed such, but not mine, as I don't use'm), for several reasons.

One is that the aftermarket Welch plugs have proven to be not as rigid as units of old from the O.E., nor as dimensionaly consistent in size (import? or just cheaper product), nether shortcoming giving tremendous confidence in achieving the proper press for retention.

Even Ford changed the manufacturing process, increasing the costs in doing so, to screw-in in many units. Perhaps due to losses? And, it has been a standard in performance building since.......well not forever, but.........

It's generally just considered good practice, and not that difficult to execute, and then no worries.

Scott.

[mh434]

Thanks all

I will have another look on Saturday (learning all the time !!).
I did a quick sketch showing the main dims below. I measured in metric and probably rather poorly converted to imperial.

Jon