Water pump exchange

[KULTULZ]

This is what Lance says about the fan size: 'It will fit but not recommended due to the torque of motor and age of rubber mounts. Could hit the shroud.' Not sure if this is valid for the flex fan also - as that one is still much lighter.

What do you recommend - should I go with the 18" like this one?

1960 BIRD OEM asm used an 18" fan. If the repro shroud is molded the same as the OEM, the fan should work fine. If the mounts were weak, the fan would also contact an original shroud. You of course would ascertain that your mounts are good and there is little engine torque movement.

The flex fan you are looking at is a good choice (IMO) as it is much lighter than the stamped steel OEM fan and does not require a fan clutch. Both are a strain on the WP bearing and rob top end HP. This fan also flexes it's blades at RPM so that it does not draw HP @ road speed.

I think the vendor is trying to protect his butt with his disclaimer. But you have to ascertain if the fan will have enough clearance at assembly.

[KULTULZ]

This seems a good price for a water pump. Do I need to send my pump for exchange (which is not doable for me) or not?

I would be more concerned about the quality of the WP rather than price. If the pump is or becomes defective, you are stuck.

If you cannot return the pump, you will gave to pay the CORE CHARGE.

Also, I bought an IR thermometer to check the engine's temperature behavior. What is the best part to check the temperature on - the radiator hose, the expansion tank, the block?

The most critical spot will be behind @ the thermostat housing where the coolant flows out of the intake past the thermostat.

You would also check the block skirt water jackets, cylinder head jackets and the radiator core for hot spots.

READ HERE- http://automotive.flex-a-lite.com/belt-driven-fans.html

This will give you more detail regarding a flex-fan. Catalogs like SUMMIT and JEGS have limited descriptions/product. It is better (IMO) to research what you need directly from a vendor's catalog and then price search.

******************************************
...gee Gary...think a referring URL would help?

Referring URL Added Above...
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ALSO-

FLEX-FAN FAQ- http://automotive.flex-a-lite.com/frequent-questions/

[YellowRose]

Flex Fans & Shrouds

Hi Jiri,

Both Lance at Tbirds SW and I have sent you emails regarding the radiator, expansion tank, flex fans and shrouds. Hopefully, they will help you.

[Rock&Roll Firebird]

Thank you Ray, appreciate it! Going to reply just now...

[KULTULZ]

I am not a "fan" of the FLEX type fan...(I had one come apart and take out a radiator as well as dent/cut the hood on my 1957 Thunderbird).

They actually "straighten" out at around 15 miles per hour and become inefficient where a metal fan keeps pulling the air thru the radiator (when used with a shroud).'

That is why they are called a flex fan. You do not need a fan @ road speed. The blades straighten out and put much less of a load on the engine. FORD has been using them for years.

And if one buys a quality fan (quality over price), it is unlikely it will come apart.

[Rock&Roll Firebird]

Here's a part of communication that I think would be good to be posted here to describe my present situation in the bigger picture:

Hello Ray, Lance,

thank you both very much for your kind words and willingness to help. First of all I should briefly describe my situation with my Bird as that's an important part of the story right now. The main two things for me now are the money and time.

I'm sure that in case of my Bird I acted like a true dreamer - after years of visiting shows, reading magazines, saving money and dreaming, I borrowed some money from the family, bought her when there was an opportunity and brought her home, not looking at other expenses that might come. That's the money part.

The time part - being overexcited with the Bird, I made a sort of a serious obligation which requires the Bird to be fully functional in the mid July the latest. Don't ask why, that's just how it is and I'm still convinced that this may work

So the thing is - I can not spare more than the situation really needs but I have in fact only one shot to order the parts from US and put them on the car. As for the cooling - the summers are usually quite hot here in Prague (97°F is not a rare summer temp here) and I need the Bird to stay cool in this weather with 4 passengers and stuck in the city traffic. That's why I can not leave anything to coincidence when we speak about cooling.

The present state is: the water was boiling out all the time when I firstly drowe the Bird (and for the last time) and there is a strong squealing sound from the engine bay (might be from the loose belt or the WP) BUT… There is a loose fan belt right now so I will exchange it tomorrow and send you info about measured temps on the engine with my IR thermometer.

Here is my point of view to the related parts:

• water pump:
- this needs to work 100% and it's good to have one for a quick exchange if there's a need
- not sure what price, quality and reseller to choose (Mac's for $110, AutoZone for $66, etc.)

• fan shroud:
- even for a fairly high cost, all of you recommended as a +++, it's a must for me I guess

• 6-blade fan flex/steel:
- same as with the fan shroud, it's a must
- Dave from the forum recommended the flex one a lot, he seems to know a lot, so I'm not quite sure which way to go…

• high-flow thermostat:
- recommended (Milodon) from the forum, not very expensive, seems to worth to exchange and eliminate potencial problem

For the moment I have no many concrete answers for your questions and will know more after tomorrow's fan belt exchange. Here are some that I can answer (with the present state - loose fan belt):

• is water boiling out of the radiator?
yes

• if so, is it when you are driving or when you are stopped (after driving)?
i think both

• where does the heat gauge register when you feel that it is over heating (such as 1/2, 3/4 or all the way to right)?
if I can remember correctly (I drowe her last summer) it was somewhere in the 2/3

• have you had to add water to radiator?
sorry to say, but I realized the overheat too late and boiled almost all of the water out. after c/a 30 mins engine calm down refilled with water and added antifreeze for the winter.

• have you done a pressure test to the system?
not yet

• is your temperature gauge working and indicating?
yes, not sure how precisely

• where the pointer is if it overheats on you?
will send the temperatures tomorrow (after the IR reading)

• do you have steam coming up out of the expansion tank or anywhere else?
will check tomorrow

• do you have a 13Lb radiator cap on it? As I recall, that is the correct rating for that cap.
don't know - how can I find out?

• is the radiator giving you any indication that it is leaking?
not really

• are the upper and lower hoses on it pretty new, or could they be old, and collapsing or weak?
not sure how to judge, they seem normal (I have new ones for the need of exchange)

• do you know if the radiator has been overhauled or re-cored before you bought it?
no, no way to find out

• is it the original one that has been in place all these years?
don't know - how can I find out?

• can you have it pressure tested to find out if it is working properly?
I think so - found a radiator shop (but I'm not sure at which point to do it - after the new parts installation?)

• if it overheats, do you see water coming out of the drain hose on the expansion tank and running on the ground?
(Once again, if it is, this might indicate the expansion tank is to full)
yes, I saw when I was driving her the first time

As I wrote, I will be testing the engine temperature in time with the IR tomorrow. I want to measure it before the fan exchange and after that to see if there's any change. Can you please advise:
a) where to measure it (rad. hoses, rad. core, exp. tank, engine block, etc.)
b) what temperature (at that place) should be the max. for turning the engine off to calm down.

Thank you.

Best regards, Jiri

[Rock&Roll Firebird]

hello guys, telegraphing to you from my garage via iPhone. have few quick (and easy) questions here:

firstly: just came across a small problem. in attempt to replace the fan belt i loosened the generator but there's an obstackle when i want to remove the belt over the fan - there is a belt from the crank to the power steering pulley. figured that unless i remove this belt, its impossible to remove the fan belt. any idea how this can be done?

secondly: the bird had oil changed a year ago. Now, the oil pan is slightly leaking through the pan bolt and the oil is now at the 'low' border on the dipstick. i will be doing complete oil change later but for now i need to know if i can test the engine for cooling with this level of oil or i need to add some. and if so, what kind of oil to add - mineral 15w30? is it ok to mix the european oil with the us one that's inside?

and lastly: do i get it right that the radiator cap is the cap on the expansion tank? (to check the psi)

[jopizz]

You have to loosen the power steering pump and remove the belt to get the fan belt off. There are two bolts on the power steering bracket that bolt to the water pump. Just loosen those and the pump will move enough to remove the belt.

As far as the oil level as long as it registers on the dip stick you should have enough to test the cooling. If you want to top it off 10W-30 or 10W-40 is fine to use. I don't know the difference in oils from the US to Europe but as long as it's recommended for gasoline engines it should be fine.

Yes the cap on the expansion tank is the radiator cap. It should say on the cap what pressure it is. As mentioned earlier 13 lbs is what is recommended.

John

[Rock&Roll Firebird]

You have to loosen the power steering pump and remove the belt to get the fan belt off. There are two bolts on the power steering bracket that bolt to the water pump. Just loosen those and the pump will move enough to remove the belt.

As far as the oil level as long as it registers on the dip stick you should have enough to test the cooling. If you want to top it off 10W-30 or 10W-40 is fine to use. I don't know the difference in oils from the US to Europe but as long as it's recommended for gasoline engines it should be fine.

Yes the cap on the expansion tank is the radiator cap. It should say on the cap what pressure it is. As mentioned earlier 13 lbs is what is recommended.

John

thank you for info john. on the ps pump's bracket - did you mean the two bolts in the upper part which are bolted to the block or the lower two bolts on the bracket that are past the ps pulley? if so, isn't there the need to remove the pulley firrst (which i unbolted but could not remove - was stuck somehow)?
if i loose the upper two bolts on the bracket, i still can not move with the ps pump...

[simplyconnected]

• 6-blade fan flex/steel:
- same as with the fan shroud, it's a must
- Dave from the forum recommended the flex one a lot, he seems to know a lot, so I'm not quite sure which way to go…

sorry to say, but I realized the overheat too late and boiled almost all of the water out. after c/a 30 mins engine calm down refilled with water and added antifreeze for the winter.

That wasn't me. I almost always recommend using electric fans, usually picked from auto scrap yards, and the alternator to match.

As I wrote in my PM to you, cooling is a system. It starts in your engine at the head gaskets, continues around the cylinders from back-to-front, and goes out the thermostat. Outside the engine, a good heat exchange is necessary. That includes a working radiator and air flow through it. The water pump simply moves coolant from the bottom of the radiator, through the engine, and back.

Nothing will kill an engine faster than overheating it. Oil can only cool very little before it breaks down and burns. If it was overheated too much, parts are warped, the engine will smoke, and it will need a major overhaul.

If your engine is severely overheating you must identify:

1. If the engine is clogged with debris or the head gaskets are rusted through,
2. If the radiator is clear to flow coolant AND air,
3. If the water pump is moving coolant,
4. If the thermostat is stuck shut,[/B]
5. If the heat riser valve is stuck shut (in the RH exhaust manifold).

When these cars were new, they had no shrouds or six blade fans and they crossed the desert without problems. - Dave

[Rock&Roll Firebird]

That wasn't me. I almost always recommend using electric fans, usually picked from auto scrap yards, and the alternator to match. Dave

Sorry Dave, that was Gary I was talking about. I think everyone here surely has a good experience with what he recommends. It's only hard for me to orient in it - steel fan, flex fan, electric fan... I just want the best possible cooling method (according to my budget) for the hot summers and heavy load.

[Rock&Roll Firebird]

So, today I passed my very first automotive engagement with my Bird. Was a bit of a hassle but finally ended up where I wanted (for today). Here are the facts:

- exchanged the fan belt and the PS pump belt
- sucked the coolant to be leveled at 1/3 of the tank
- started the engine and left it idle for 20 minutes
- durinng that time I measured max. 150° on the radiator (core&hoses) and the dash temp gauge did not cross the letter 'T' (iow moved very little)
- no squealing from the engine bay anymore after the belt exchange

anomalies:
firstly:
- from the start of the cold engine the coolant bubbles, whirls and foams inside the expansion tank (when the cap openned)
- when cap is closed, the foaming coolant runs out through the expansion hose (even with the cold engine)
- when a gas was pushed a bit, the foaming coolant leaked even around the tank cap
- there is no number on the cap like 13 or 14, there are operation instructions and a 'part no. 2.582.205' and some 'co' writing that I can not read
-> seems to me that the cap does not seal at all (at temp. 150°and less), feels like there should be some rubber gasket between the cap and the tank which is missing...

secondly:
- there is excessive smoke coming from the oil fill opening
- there is excessive smoke coming from the pipe that leads from the back of the block/intake to the undercarriage along the exhaust
- both smokes were there even before I overheated, before the first ride
- an exhaust smoke 'disapears' after few minutes (and only the 'two places stated above' smoke remains)

lastly:
- I wanted to put the air cleaner back to the carb (was removed for the transport from the US) but I'm missing the central bolt/shaft (about 4 inches long) that should go from the center of the carb. can this be purchased?

Now, I will wait for your judgements impatiently. Just one more thing (not sure if it matters) - the car sat for about 3 years, than only a oil/filter and coolant exchange was done. Previous state can not be traced back.

[KULTULZ]

You need a new quality pressure cap (#14) and it sounds as the thermostat is hanging open (coolant moving in surge tank).

The engine smoking is most likely from the road draft system needing service. Consider a PCV upgrade.

[Rock&Roll Firebird]

You need a new quality pressure cap (#14) and it sounds as the thermostat is hanging open (coolant moving in surge tank).

This one is 13 psi. Is it OK? What is a practical difference between 13 and 14 psi cap?

[simplyconnected]

The presence of bubbles in your coolant is NOT good. That usually comes from a bad head gasket.

You don't describe the color of your smoke. Some of it may be steam if coolant is sucked in and bubbles are blown passed the head gasket.

You need a cap with a proper rubber seal. There is a possibility that if you use a good radiator cap that your smoke and bubble situation may become worse. It could be that someone removed the seal.

You didn't report the condition of your heat riser valve. - Dave