Hello and Questions!

[YellowRose]

Hello and Questions!

Hi Doc,

I am not going to be able to answer all your questions, but I might be able to help with some. Yes, the gentleman in Florida who does the AM/FM Stereo conversions has been at it for many years and is very good. You will have a more modern radio. I am not sure if he uses the face plate that is on yours or not, but that is something you can ask him. As for that amplifier, it is my understanding that if he does that conversion, you will NOT need that amplifier any longer. You can just leave it in place. That panel below the instrument panel should come off easily enough. Then you will be able to get a better view of things up there once it is out of the way.

Your turn signal problem is probably in the steering wheel itself. Read the Technical Tips in the TRL regarding taking the steering wheel off and working with it. You should have a steering wheel puller tool, but it can be done without one.

I, and probably many others have the same problem you have with the gas gauge. I can't tell accurately how much gas I have in the tank. It is something that I need to get fixed. I am tired of guessing. To work that out, you will need to take the gas gauge out of the instrument panel, and open the trunk to get to the hole in the tank that holds the gas sending unit in place. You will need to turn that locking mechanism to unlock it, to get to the sending unit to take it out of the tank. There instructions in the Technical Resource Library on how to do this. Keeping a good ground on it, and having someone else working with you is important. Check the sending unit to make sure it still has its float on it. Check the float to see if it is full of gas. If it is, get a replacement for it. With it full of gas, it will give you bad readings. As you run the sending unit through the rheostat, have someone watch the gas gauge to see if it runs into shorts on the rheostat. You might see it drop down to zero when you are part way through the range, or on the upper range indicating that your tank is nearly full or full. If it kicks down on you, that rheostat is probably bad. If that is the case, you might want to order a new sending unit from one of the Tbird parts vendors. They have them. If the testing shows that the action across the rheostat is good and steady, then your sending unit might be in good shape.

Then it will be a matter of adjusting the back of the gas gauge. There are little pin wheels on the back of the gauge that can be adjusted for minimum and max readings. The instructions for this are in the TRL. You can simulate the tank being full by moving the gauge to the full position. Once there, have the other person try adjusting the gauge as far as it will got towards the F for Full position. Once that is done, move the sending unit arm to the minimum or Empty position and check the reading on the gauge. If it needs to be adjusted, turn the other pin wheel to drop the reading as far down as it will go. When you put the sending unit back in the tank, and secure it, you should be getting a more accurate reading on the gauge. You could test it by filling the tank completely up and check the reading with the sending unit in place. You could then drain the tank to Empty and see what your reading is. You will need something to put about 16 gallons of gas in though, if you try that test. Others might be able to give you better ways to check the gauge and sending unit. Make sure, again, that you have a good ground on the sending unit.

With your radiator having been cleaned out and a six bladed fan in place, you are probably not going to have a problem with it overheating.

If you are going to go the electric wiper route, and you will love it when you do, you are not going to need the wiper connection from the fuel pump. It can be plugged off. I will let others with better technical knowledge than I have comment on your fuel pump and those things. To get to the wiper motor, you have to take off the glove box cover, and take out the glove box. The wiper motor is behind the glove box. You will find information in the Technical Resource Library on how to do this also. My mechanic, when working on the wiper motor, also took out the radio and the AC vent above it.

I have an Edelbrock 1406 carb on Rose. To make the linkage match up to this carb, my mechanic had to modify the linkage flange that everything hooks to so it would hook up right. I hope that will not be the case with yours... Maybe someone with better experience than mine can help you with these questions.

I have no idea what that Pressure Regulator might be, but one of the guys, after looking at the pictures, might be able to help you with that.

It is good that you wanted to keep it original, but since the engine is not original, you might as well make her a safer and better car to drive. Those who have disc brakes and dual master cylinders/dual power boosters say they will never go back to the old system. Same thing for those, like myself, who have electric windshield wipers. I will never go back to vacuum wipers.

Congratulations on finding your ROT sheet! Preserve it in plastic, and make copies of it. Very few people find that important piece of paperwork. In the Technical Resource Library, you will find information on what the various entries in the ROT Sheet mean. If you go to this website, you can check yours. http://www.tbirdsquare.com/ Go over to the Technical tab on the far right side of his website and you will find the ROT Sheet breakdown listed. Click on it and it will tell you a lot about what the various entries mean. Also, on the TRL, you will find the breakdown of the Data Plate and the VIN #. These will tell you what your Tbird left the factory with... You can post your ROT sheet on this Forum, if you wish. We would love to see it. This is lengthy, so I will post it. I hope this information is helpful to you.

[Guest]

thanks for the help rose. i will look into the library.

fuel tank, line, flex hose from fuel line to pump and fuel sending unit are all new. well i say new they were done about a year to a year and a half ago maybe two. but they are new in my world. HAHA. the clock unscrewed and came out completely, i havent messed with the speedometer, but i have tried to do the same thing with the gas gauge and the chrome comes off but not the unit for some reason. it feels like it cant come thru and has to be taken out someway from the back of the panel. clock was not like that.

i just went out and looked at the pressure regulator i was telling you about. this is a pic and i can tell you how it is hooked up. one of the top vacuums goes to the wipers across the manifold, the other on the top of the pump goes up to a connector that is in the manifold then on the other side of the connector it goes out and to the power brake or steering it seems on the driver size. opens into a larger rubber hose. what seems to be going to the pressure regulator is the line from UNDERNEATH the fuel pump that plugs in there. you have two on the old ones on the bottom as well. one is an inlet from tank, other is outlet which is what this is. but it seems to go up to a connector on the regulator i am putting a pic of below, then on the other side of the regulator there is a outlet that is a metal tube that goes INTO the carb. so this is somehow another fuel pressure regulator. see below.

[Guest]

Hey Doc,
The fuel/temp gauge (after removing the bezel) should have three small screws holding it in. Your CVR (constant voltage regulator) may be bad! It takes power from the battery and reduces it down to 6 volts. It is usually mounted behind instrument cluster, between speed odometer and fuel/temp gauges. I will see if I can find picture!
I look through my shop manual (one you need if you don't have one) and all I see on the pressure regulator is that it was on the 430 cid engine! One of the 430 guys may be able to help you more!
Keep us posted!
Richard D. Hord

[tbird430]

I've never seen a 1960 430cid T-Bird, anyways, with a fuel pressure regulator. Maybe it was a Lincoln thing for a couple years...?


-Jon in TX.

[YellowRose]

Hello and Questions!

The CVR unit pictures that Richard posted are of the newer, solid state version manufactured by that US company. They cost about $50, and as far as I am concerned, after having a couple of the regular ones go out on me, well worth the money. You can get the original types for about half that price, but keep in mind that many of them are made in China. I have been told by Tbird parts people that those Chinese ones have a high rate of failure. Your CVR unit might be fine. If your temperature indicator is working right, and you are getting readings on it, your CVR unit is okay, since it supplies power to both. If your temperature indicator is not working either, it could be the CVR unit at fault, or a bad ground or bad temperature sending unit.

[Guest]

Just a little info on the 430 cid I found.
Underneath, coil springs served at all four corners for 1958. Engineering had hoped to have had an air-cushioned suspension ready for production, but it never came to light on the T-bird. The 1958 convertible possesses a rather curious characteristic for a luxury car. Unlike most full-size cars of the day, the top was not power operated, but rather required the manual assistance of at least one person. On the inside, the 1958 T-birds used vinyl bolsters with a choice of vinyl or linen fabric inserts, but no leather. Deep loop color keyed rayon carpets were standard in both the hardtop and convertibles. Convertible top colors were limited to black or white. In 1959, several improvements were available for Thunderbird buyers. A new optional 430 cid V-8 with 350 hp topped the list. Leather seat fronts were also offered as an extra cost option this year, as was a factory issued continental rear spare tire kit. The third year of the "Square" birds looked very similar to the early versions. However, under the sheet metal was a number of changes and some very interesting optional and standard items added. The convertible top was now operated hydro-electrically. Another major improvement for 1960 was the use of leaf springs for the rear axle. This greatly improved the ride and handling ability of these cars, a plus for those who plan to drive these sporty, personal luxury Fords. One of the most interesting options was the availability of the first factory sunroof for a post-war Ford. There were a total of 2,536 T-bird hardtops equipped in 1960. The offering of the 430 cid V-8 continued this year, as did leather seating surfaces and a full assortment of power accessories. When the last 1960 Ford Thunderbird rolled off the Wixom assembly line in September 1960, a total of 198,146 "Square-birds" had been produced. That’s a ratio of better than three to one when compared to the "little" two-passenger units from 1955 to 1957. This information came from www.collectorcarmarket.com
Richard D. Hord

[simplyconnected]

...fuel tank, line, flex hose from fuel line to pump and fuel sending unit are all new. ...i just went out and looked at the pressure regulator i was telling you about. ...so this is somehow another fuel pressure regulator. see below.

I don't know about yours in particular, but I know that fuel pressure regulators are available in most auto parts stores. Folks buy them because electric fuel pumps output too much pressure for our old carbs (causing them to flood or run irratically).

Mechanical fuel pumps work well, but only when the engine is turning. This is just a 'shot from the hip', but check for evidence of an electric fuel pump. It could be back by the tank or anywhere along the fuel line. That would explain the need for a pressure regulator. - Dave

[Guest]

I don't know about yours in particular, but I know that fuel pressure regulators are available in most auto parts stores. Folks buy them because electric fuel pumps output too much pressure for our old carbs (causing them to flood or run irratically).

Mechanical fuel pumps work well, but only when the engine is turning. This is just a 'shot from the hip', but check for evidence of an electric fuel pump. It could be back by the tank or anywhere along the fuel line. That would explain the need for a pressure regulator. - Dave

Thank you all for the help. Had a friend over to work on her friday afternoon, didnt do anything yesterday and today will be a FULL day on her. I have the standard replacement fuel pump with the two vaccum boosters on top currently. I was thinking since Jasper Engines did the remanufacture and sent the original owner a 67 engine that maybe it had it on there. it is indeed a 352 though.

it seems the outlet at the bottom of the pump goes up and into the regulator (says MILESMASTER on top of the thing and below that is PRESSURE REGULATOR) then on the otherside across from the inlet is an outlet, that goes along the manifold and turns INTO the carb thats on there. all steel hoses. once the edelbrock goes on there, i doubt the regulator will be used as the edelbrock (from what the instructions say) cannot be used with stock metal lines and needs to have the rubber flex hose attached to it. these metal ones on there now seem to screw into the regulator. i am thinking of by passing that regulator, the guys that came over (race engine builder, mechanic and machinist) all say it should be able to come off regardless. so we will see what happens.

i would love to put the aftermarket mechanical pump from summitracing on there and am thinking that since the new carb has a vacuum for power brake booster that this will solve the one problem i will have left since i am switching to electric wipers and that means i wont need the other vacuum on top the pump. more input on these things would be appreciated from those that are in the know or have the edelbrock performer carbs.

another question i have pertaining to the voltage regulator we were talking about under the instrument panel. if i switch to a pertronix ignition and coil system that is advertised on MACs Antique Autoparts will that do anything to the voltage regulators i may have or will they still work? on their site they have two kinds, one for the 55-57 that says 12v and then 1958-1966 that are for everything else and they dont say 12v. so i would assume this is the one i pick since i have a 1959. just wanted to be sure and to make sure i will not encounter more problems (as is usually the case when replacing things) by having the new more powerful ignition items.

thanks again for all your help!

[simplyconnected]

I agree; a stock-like carb (including Edelbrock) should work just fine with no additional pressure regulator. Your stock fuel pump only puts out a few psi, which carb's deal with, nicely.

BE SURE your fuel lines have tight fitting connections on the inlet side of your pump. There is negative pressure on that side of the pump, which promotes air leaks into the gas line because air is 600 times less dense than gasoline. I didn't believe it until I used a clear line to 'test' the flow.

Another consideration is, keep your gas line far away from heat or you WILL get vapor lock (on the inlet side of the pump). Ex: A gas line close to an exhaust manifold will boil the gasoline inside UNDER 100*F, because it is below atmospheric pressure (neg psi).

Many of our classic Fords have been retrofit with various brands of electronic ignition kits. I don't have a preference. Some swear by Pertronics, Accell, or Ford's own Dura-spark. They all require a 'hot' +12-v wire from your ignition switch (to sense the key is on). They will not have any affect on your voltage regulators.

Just to clarify, your charging system has a voltage regulator AND your dash gauges have another. My good friend Richard Hord, is refering to the dash gauges regulator. It only controls the 6-volts required by the gauges.

[Guest]

I agree; a stock-like carb (including Edelbrock) should work just fine with no additional pressure regulator. Your stock fuel pump only puts out a few psi, which carb's deal with, nicely.

BE SURE your fuel lines have tight fitting connections on the inlet side of your pump. There is negative pressure on that side of the pump, which promotes air leaks into the gas line because air is 600 times less dense than gasoline. I didn't believe it until I used a clear line to 'test' the flow.

Another consideration is, keep your gas line far away from heat or you WILL get vapor lock (on the inlet side of the pump). Ex: A gas line close to an exhaust manifold will boil the gasoline inside UNDER 100*F, because it is below atmospheric pressure (neg psi).

Many of our classic Fords have been retrofit with various brands of electronic ignition kits. I don't have a preference. Some swear by Pertronics, Accell, or Ford's own Dura-spark. They all require a 'hot' +12-v wire from your ignition switch (to sense the key is on). They will not have any affect on your voltage regulators.

Just to clarify, your charging system has a voltage regulator AND your dash gauges have another. My good friend Richard Hord, is refering to the dash gauges regulator. It only controls the 6-volts required by the gauges.

Thanks for the clarification. In my bird the fuel pump is down underneath the car and the inlet is a screw in type (didnt know this when i decided it needed a new one HAHA) very difficult with radiator hoses in the way to put it on. the way its in there now is the flex line with adapter that screws in is partially sitting on the radiator hose as there is no other way to put it in a different place down there.

we put the 600cfm Edelbrock in, took off the heater hoses and capped what needed it, capped all other vacuums that needed it and disconnected the fuel pressure regulator (had old smelling gas in it and dirt particles) then installed a rubber fuel line attached to part of the metal line off the fuel pump (had to cut with pipe cutter) then added in a inline fuel filter (since i dont know where mine would be unless it is INSIDE the existing pump???) now the hose isnt sitting on the intake manifold and we tied off the inline fuel filter a little higher so its not sitting on the intake manifold. but it does get hot just like everything else in those cars. i dont know if they make a barrier that might help it but hopefully this wont cause a problem. judging on how it now sounds and drives i dont think its causing any issues at all! it literally seems like its pulling at least 300hp now, especially when the secondaires kick in!!! man what a difference. i still cant believe it. the old carb was so old and rebuilt so many times that the secondaires NEVER opened up at all and eventually started to backfire inside the ones that worked. this completely changed the whole feel of the car now.

anyway, i start off in Drive2 all the time and i feel it shift from low to Drive1 but i NEVER feel it shift to Drive 2. it downshifts when slowing down and everything is SMOOTH but its soooo smooth that i wonder if i have to get it out on the interstate to actually feel it kick into drive2 or maybe get on it at highway speeds and open the secondaires then feel it shift from Drive2 and hit "passing"gear of drive1 when it downshifts to that. i havent taken it out yet on the interstate. yesterday after the carb was on i went down a straightaway near my house and was doing 80 and i dont think it ever hit drive2 LOL wasnt winding out the engine or anything just hauling tail. i had to back off as i generally dont drive like that but after hearing the change of deepness to the idle and here the air being sucked in on that carb i decided to open it up and clear things out! after sitting for basically the last 28 years and never really working properly with only 6850 miles on the engine i decided it was time to see what it could do! i wasnt disappointed at all, but am curious as to how all that works as my shop manual is like reading greek in that section. it does say drive1 or drive2 can be from 63-75 at max throttle or 59-70 at depending on what rear axle ratio you have. seems like it says at minimum throttle it will be in drive1 or 2 at 12-22mph so non of it really make much sense to me since i am clueless. any input on this would be appreciated and also anything to protect my new fuel line and filter from heat.

[YellowRose]

Hello and Questions!

I am going to let others comment on your post, but it is my understanding that D1 is the desired position to be driving in, not D2. D2 is used for other reasons, but according to what I have read and have been told D1, and been posted on this Forum, is the proper position to drive in and then you should feel all the proper shifting taking place.

[GTE427]

Your Cruise-O-Matic is a three speed transmission.

Your gear selector has three forward positions, L-D1-D2

L position selects 1st gear and holds it, will not shift to any gear.
D1 position starts in 1st gear, shift to 2nd then 3rd.
D2 postion starts in 2nd, shifts to 3rd.

I also suspect there is something out of sorts with your lower radiator hose/fuel supply line, the radiator hose should be well forward of your fuel pump and shouldn't pose any interference with your fuel pump or lines. You'll have to evaluate what you have with pictures of other cars or illustrations.

[Guest]

Ok. That answers that. Lol.
So when do I ever use drive 2? I can never get it actually in what is supposed to be drive one. I have the detent plate but the steering wheel puller,although universal, doesn't fit the thing right. And here I was starting off in drive2, glad I haven't been driving it much.

The radiator hose looks to be in the right position. It's because the old pumps have two inlets and they aren't in a great position to mess with either and the fuel line inlet is on the side instead of being at the rear where I think it should be. Would make it a lot easier to install in the first place. I will post a pic later today.

Thanks again for the help.

[simplyconnected]

GTE427 is right on the money.

I always use D2, and I can feel every one of the three gears in my Cruise-O-Matic. First gear is quick. Sometimes she shifts to second gear before I'm through the intersection.

Our '59 Galaxie is very heavy, but starting out in first gear really helps at lights. I never could figure out why Ford supplied three gears if they weren't intended to be used. Seems to me that the powertrain has an easier time using more gears. My wife's Escape has SIX forward gears, and I can feel every one of them. It really wakes up that little four-banger. - Dave

[Yellowbird]

According to the '58 owners manual "The D1 selector lever position will give you the best combination of automatic gear shifts for full power starts and practically all normal driving". It goes on to say "The D2 will always give you starts in second gear regardless how little or how much you press down the accelerator pedal. D2 is is especially useful when starting from a standstill on icy pavements where gentle sure-footed acceleration is needed to provide good traction". This is on page 23.

I kept driving out of habit in D2 thinking it was like late model 3 speed automatics. I spoke to a friend who has a '59 and he set me straight.

Leonard