Bendix gear disengaging

[Guest]

Back in 2006 Alexander replied to a starter issue post inquiry. I am experiencing the same starter ”bendix gear” issue with my 58 bird. Alexander seemingly explains the disengagement of the bendix prior to start as the norm and attributes such to evaporation of fuel in the carb. I can understand that fuel evaporates, but don’t understand why the bendix disengages the flywheel leaving the starter motor just to spin. Does anybody have any further clues or explanation of why this is or what may be the problem causing the bendix to disengage prior to engine start up? I have searched the archives, but the below is really the only thing I came up with. I shall look forward to other’s advice and experiences.

01-28-2006, 07:29 PM

RE: Starter Rebuild Question

Welcome to the site.

Does the car eventually start after a few times starting it from cold? I find with both my T-Birds, when it has not been run for a week or so, it may crank a few times and then disengage without starting the car. By the third try at starting it almost always starts. I attribute this to the carburetor bowls not being full because of evaporation. It never happens when the car is warmed up. I have come to accept this as normal.

Alexander

[Yellowbird]

Jed,
I took my '58 out tonight for spin. It had been sitting since last Sunday. My normal procedure is to press the gas pedal all the way down twice, then start turning her over. Usually, although not every time, when she tries to start she will kick out the bendix once or twice. Then she will start.
Once she has been run, then I go to re-start there never seems to be a problem. I know this is not technical, just what I've experienced. Hopefully simplyconnected can shed some light on this.

Leonard

[jldevlin]

Ford Starter

Good Day,

I have replaced my starter twice before I read that the starters used on these and later 352s kicked out as they attempted to start, I remember in my 63 galaxy when i was a kid it kicked out as well when it coughed on start up, I have purchased a new starter and it still does it, the shop who worked on my car replaced the starter 3 times before we realized this model of starter was flacky and actually designed to kick out as soon as the rotation of the motor on start up changed

John

[byersmtrco]

As stated by a 60's Ford technician (parts changer)

"They all do that"

[Guest]

I can understand how the bendix gear is designed to disengage after the flywheel spins at a greater rpm then the starter is turning. That is logical. My bendix disengages before the engine fires. I would say that maybe 5-10 seconds and the bendix disengages everysingle time. No chance for the engine to fire. Perhaps the spring or bushing on the bendix on mine that causes it to disengage is worn out and either needs be replaced or need a new starter. Are bendix's replacable? What do you think?

[vernz]

Both of mine does the same thing.....kick out before ever firing. This happens when they have been sitting a while. Both of mine are 430's, but I don't think that makes a difference. I believe that is a normal abnormal.

Vern

[bird 60]

I had the same problem myself when first starting. I would press the Gas Pedal once to engage the Auto Choke. What I do now is to press the Gas Pedal about 5 times & it starts first time every-time.

Chris....From the Land of OZ.

[jldevlin]

Bendix

In these starters yes a Bendix is replacable, when you get one and pulling apart the starter be careful not to pull the armature out as the brushes riding on them are a pain to get back in position around the armature ...at least that is my memory of it going back 30 years....but yes you can replace the bendix, not sure if it is a bendix problem though as a bad bendix does not engage at all, probably the metal disk that conducts the power is corroded and the resistance after a few seconds of power to it cuts out the bendix, sorry I can't be sure as mentioned I did repairs to these starters on my old fords long ago

[Guest]

...probably the metal disk that conducts the power is corroded and the resistance after a few seconds of power to it cuts out the bendix,...

Devlin, thanks for the idea on the electrics. That makes sense about corrosion and resistance. I think I will do some checking on that. Maybe some nice warm balmy day in Dec or January I will jack the Bird up and get down on the cold Minnesota cement garage floor and check the starter electrics out. Brrrr.

[simplyconnected]

Hopefully simplyconnected can shed some light on this.

Len, I hope this answer does justice to your question.

This is a typical 430 Starter Motor.
The FAY 11002-A is a centrifugal Starter, and one of the least understood. More modern starters use a solenoid to pull on a fork, which engages the Bendix gear. This motor has no fork and it has no solenoid. The device mounted on your fender apron is really a contactor (but we call it a solenoid). This motor only has one wire terminal and the case is used for ground.

Our forefathers at Ford were truly Mechanical & Electrical geniuses. They devised a mechanical “Starter Motor Drive Assembly” that pulls gears towards the flywheel upon motor start strictly by using centrifugal force and kinetic energy. The spring is there to help disengage the gears, but the real retract happens when the flywheel gears goes faster than the starter motor gears.

There are a few glitches to the operation:
* If the starter motor starts slowly, the drive assembly won’t have enough resistance to engage with the flywheel, so it spins freely without advancing.
* If the drive assembly has an extremely dirty shaft, it won’t engage.
* If you ‘bump’ the engine, trying to reach Top Dead Center, the drive assembly might ‘stick’ inside the flywheel, and not retract. This is because the flywheel never went faster than the starter motor, so it didn’t kick the drive assembly back home. No harm done, it will retract next time the engine starts.

Normally, this starter works just fine when used in a normal manner. It is ****-near bulletproof and has open architecture, with a cover (or inspection band).

On a bench, the back and front plates can easily be removed by loostening two long bolts. Re-assembly is just as easy because the four brushes are inserted AFTER the back plate is assembled. Simply pull back the brush spring, insert the brush, and pull on the pigtail to ensure proper ‘slide’ and spring pressure. When done, slide the band back in place and tighten the band screw.

Brushes are only about 1/2" long when new. They are made of copper/bronze and are short, to cut down on resistance. They last a VERY long time. This is a series wound motor, meaning, all the current going through the field also goes through the armature. Magnetic pull (torque) is created by current, and lots of it. The more engine resistance (like in the winter when oil is thick), the more torque this starter delivers because it draws more current. - Dave

[Guest]

This is a typical 430 Starter Motor. The FAY 11002-A is a centrifugal Starter, and one of the least understood. More modern starters use a solenoid to pull on a fork, which engages the Bendix gear. This motor has no fork and it has no solenoid. The device mounted on your fender apron is really a contactor (but we call it a solenoid). This motor only has one wire terminal and the case is used for ground. ... Magnetic pull (torque) is created by current, and lots of it. The more engine resistance (like in the winter when oil is thick), the more torque this starter delivers because it draws more current. - Dave

Dave, Is the 430 starter motor used only on 430 CIC enginess, or is it also used on Big Block FEs such as my '58 352? If not, is the same true, of what you mentioned above, for the starter motor that is used on the 352?

[simplyconnected]

Jed, this starter is used across the board with little exception.
The 1954-'55 had field coils designed for six-volts,
The 1956-on had field coils designed for twelve-volts. <--I edited this info.

Ford used this starter for 6-cylinder AND 8-cylinder engines.
In 1959, only the 430 had two parts change. The housing and back plate have different numbers.

To sum things:
FAD 11002-A was used in '49-'53 239 (8-cyl) and 226 (6-cyl) six-volt Flat Head engines,
FAC 11001-P was used in all '49-'55 six-volt engines
FAR 11001-A was used in all '56-'59 6&8-cyl engines with the exception of the 430
FAY 11002-A was used in 430 engines from '59 on.

The same armature was used in ALL starters from '54 thru at least '59. Since the 430 uses the same armature and brushes, Ford must have moved the power post in the housing (or some minor change like that).

'51-'53 starters had different armature shaft lengths depending on which trans was used.

I used my '55 six-volt starter on twelve-volts for many years, and it's still going strong. It winds-up fast and my Y-block starts immediately. The starter really doesn't get a chance to run for very long. - Dave

[Guest]

Jed, this starter is used across the board with little exception...- Dave

Dave, you certainly are a wealth of information! Thank you very much for your clarifying my question. With the information you have provided, I look forward to resolving my bendix/starter issues.

[Yellowbird]

Dave,
The knowledge and the information you have is absolutely amazing!!!
It's you and others like you who make this website such a wealth of knowledge and helpful to all of us!

Leonard

[simplyconnected]

...Are bendix's replacable? What do you think?

I finally got around to putting my starter motor pictures up on my site.
Take a look at how it goes.

CLICK HERE

- Dave