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  #11  
Old 04-29-2013, 12:32 PM
KULTULZ
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmij View Post

Also, I'm not too sure about my clutch. Being that my Z-bar, and Z-bar engine side mounting bracket are custom made pieces I'm not sure if the pedal throw is optimal. I looked up "clutch drag" and found this short article;

http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pa...kills-synchros

I have been driving it fairly aggressively, (that's kind of why I built this car). My clutch fork push rod does not go into the clutch fork perpendicularly, it points more downward. If I were to make the Z-bar lever about an 1 1/4 inches longer it would be close to perpendicular. Does that make sense? That would give me more pedal throw too.

I'll take some pictures after work today and try to post them, but it's hard to get in there with the camera. I might draw it up and post a scan of that instead.

I also get a bit of stutter or shimmy when I let out the clutch at lower rpm's in first gear. If I have the choke engaged it runs at a higher RPM and does a lot better. Could that be telling me anything? My idle is set at about 750 RPM.

thx again, Dave J
I would re-check the linkage, especially if fabricated. If you have a three finger pressure plate and the fingers are not depressed equally, it could warp the plate and/or the disc.

That sounds like the main problem. The fingers have to be depressed equally or the spring pressure is going to warp something.

Maybe consider going to cable actuated?

It takes a really hard man to break a F/4/S...
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  #12  
Old 04-29-2013, 12:32 PM
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Getting hotter (summer) so maybe your oil viscosity needs to be changed? Makes a big difference in the small 4 speed gearboxes I am more familiar with (although the top loader would probably take up the whole engine compartment on my "other" car - an MGA)

There is always a lot of discussion on oil types causing shift problems on the MG forum. Those cars use engine oil for lubrication (20W50). One fellow (who has owned his car for 50+ years) tries different types of oils and lubricants and gives his impression of the product.

For example this was his review of a synthetic product: "Several years ago I tried Redline MTL in my MGA gearbox for a 12,000 mile test. Immediately I didn't like the way it shifted, having to ham fist it to avoid grinding. The racer types might like that effect. I was very happy the day I drained it and returned to using 20W50 oil in the gearbox returning to finger tip shifting."

I was suprised to see that David Kee site recommends gear oil for the top loader - would have thought they had the same style gears as the MG (only bigger) and used engine oil - oh well - live and learn - now I know.

Hope you don't have to pull the tranny and install a new syncro.

Good luck,
Eric


http://www.davidkeetoploaders.com/specifications.htm

Last edited by DKheld : 04-29-2013 at 12:51 PM.
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  #13  
Old 04-29-2013, 03:41 PM
davidmij davidmij is offline
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Thx Eric and Gary.
I just realized I could give you this link and it will show you my Z-bar, bracket, and fork. If you look at pictures 54 through about 58 you can see that the pressure from the push rod to the clutch fork is tilted downward. However it seems to me that the throw out bearing would still be even on the 3 clutch fingers because the throw out bearing is held straight by the tranny shaft.

Hm, actually I guess the throw out bearing isn't a super tight fit to the trans shaft though. And even the slightest uneven pressure on all 3 fingers would cause a problem just as you say Gary. Although the fork only hits 2 places on the throw out bearing so once again it should be even pressure.
Thinking about that, and then what the article I posted said about the syncros getting torn up very easily - I wouldn't doubt that this was the cause and the effect from my off angle push rod and clutch fork connection.

Eric, I read a few things that suggest the same thing you are saying, and the past 2 weeks the temperature here has gone up from the 40's to the 70's. Night time lows were still freezing until the last week. With that, changing the viscosity is a quick easy try so I'll do that this weekend and see. I'm using straight 90 weight right now, maybe changing to 75-90, or trying the 20-50 oil.

Let me know what you think from these pictures Gary if you don't mind, and thx again.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1014928...eat=directlink
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  #14  
Old 04-29-2013, 05:02 PM
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That's a cool build. Thanks for letting us come by your shop - even if it was "electronically"

I love that home-brewed slide hammer

Yeah - the other guys may know more about the linkages. The linkages on my MG's are enclosed and of course stock so no need for the mods like you are having to deal with.

On the oil thing - the main reason we don't use hypoid gear oil in the MG transmissions (which look similar only smaller) is that the EP (extreme pressure) additive sulfur stuff in the hypoid gear oil eats away at our brass synchro's and gear selector forks. Kind of looks like a brass syncro in your tranny (uh-o) but the expert dude recommends hypoid so just not sure on that.

Eric

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  #15  
Old 04-30-2013, 03:32 AM
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It is difficult to tell whether the clutch linkage is binding/deflecting by the photo(s). You have a one piece blow shield? One cannot look @ clutch operation with one (no inspection cover).

I hate to say it but you may have to pull the trans to check for any irregular clutch component wear and check the synchros/blocking rings while down.

The brass toothed rings in your photo are the blocking rings and the steel is the actual synchro.



ALMOST FORGOT-

Go with the lube recommendations of the David Kee site. Usually, in this hemisphere, heavier engine oil usage is usually restricted to heavy truck transmissions. The F/4/S is meant for gear oil and the multi-grades are much better than the older straight weights (75W until the rear reaches operating temp and it becomes 90).

I have overhaul tech articles if you need. That dragging clutch tech article you found was great.
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  #16  
Old 04-30-2013, 07:43 AM
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Youtube has an excellent video on how the brass synchro blocking rings work. CLICK HERE

The wear which causes your shifter to grind or prevent gear changes happens inside the cone and around the three clutch hub inserts. These inserts can eventually elongate the slots which prevents the synchro rings from aligning. The inside cone also wears which prevents braking and causes that horrible grinding.

If you watch the video you will get a much better understanding of what's really happening inside your top loader. The guy actually has Muncie trans parts to show but Ford transmissions work the same. He also explains the importance of using correct lube and why your manual trans can burn up with the wrong oil.

My first manual trans rebuild was done on a Muncie from my '66 GTO, way back in the day. Once you get into it, rebuilding a manual trans is not real technical and a lot easier than it looks.

All these parts are available at reasonable prices. This is work you can do. The end result is very rewarding. To be honest, I never had the book to look at and I didn't need it. (My cluster gear had missing teeth so I changed it.) Good luck, Dave. - Dave
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  #17  
Old 04-30-2013, 08:03 AM
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BTW, check out toploaderheaven's site: CLICK HERE

This guy will answer any of your questions over the phone until you're back on the road and provide a DVD to show how to rebuild your trans.

Want references? CLICK HERE (from the fordmuscle/Mustang forum) - Dave
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  #18  
Old 04-30-2013, 11:33 AM
davidmij davidmij is offline
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Great info guys, thanks a ton!

The syncros video was great. I had no idea how they worked. I thought because the little teeth on the brass blocking gears looked good (on the outside) then they were fine. Little did I know that the problem would be on the inside cone of that gear! I actually thought the brass one was the syncro - learning all the time!

I will definitely use the 75-90 gear oil now too.

My son will be home from college in a few weeks. With him helping I can pull the trans and do what I need to. I was considering pulling my console inside the car and cutting a hole right above the access plate to the toploader. That way I wouldn't have to pull the trans. Then when I'm done I could cover it with an aluminum plate and thick gasket of some sort. However, I think I would also like to replace the clutch with something heavier duty so I'll still need to pull everything anyway.

Can you guys suggest anything in the way of a "heavier" duty clutch? The reason I ask is because I plan to have a shop in Albuquerque eventually (sometime in the next two years) build me a stroker out of my 390. Either that or I'll be adding an Edelbrock RPM performer intake, cam, and have my heads ported and matched. I want to end up with about 400+ hp. Right now I have a stock 315 hp 427 torque 390. I also have headers so I'm guessing I'm at around 350 hp.

One more question - if I use my stock sized 15 inch wheels my tire diameter is about 26 inches and the car can spin the tires no problem. Plus it is easy to get rolling from a dead stop.
But, when I put on the cheater slicks my diameter is 28.5 inches and the tires are also wider. It doesn't start from a dead stop as well as with the small tires. I have to ride the clutch a little longer and use a tad more RPM's. If I try to spin the tires with the slicks it just burns clutch. I have a 3.89 open rearend. Is a performance clutch and pressure plate what I need?

I know this is not normal wear and tear for what a car is intended. I will only be putting about 500 miles a year on this car and taking it to RatRod car gatherings. I've only tried spinning the old school cheater slicks on a very remote stretch of road that is safe and out of traffic. Maybe it's just that my motor (bottom half) is old and tired.

Anyway, thanks again, Dave J
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  #19  
Old 04-30-2013, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmij View Post
...I actually thought the brass one was the syncro - learning all the time!...
It is! Ford calls this part, "RING - SYNCHRONIZER BLOCKING" and we commonly call it a, 'synchro-ring.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmij View Post
...One more question - if I use my stock sized 15 inch wheels my tire diameter is about 26 inches and the car can spin the tires no problem. Plus it is easy to get rolling from a dead stop.
But, when I put on the cheater slicks my diameter is 28.5 inches and the tires are also wider. It doesn't start from a dead stop as well as with the small tires. I have to ride the clutch a little longer and use a tad more RPM's. If I try to spin the tires with the slicks it just burns clutch...
The reason we go with lower rear end gears is to lighten the burden on the rear member. When you apply lots of power train torque, then try to hold the car to the road with wide and sticky slicks, the weakest link is your rear end assembly. Changing the ratio to a high gear ratio like 3.9:1 or 4.3:1 allows the gears to transfer torque to the wheels much easier without breaking. It's not how easy you can burn rubber, it's how well the car launches.

I have seen axles that actually twisted 1/2 turn before breaking. More commonly, we have all seen ring and pinion gears let loose from extremely high torque. Nobody wants their top end to be 100mph but that's the tradeoff when you go with really high RE ratios.

The 8.8" RE in my 400HP Mustang was 4.30:1 but my (AOD) transmission had overdrive, which brought my top end back up again. So, changing one component affects so many others.

Want more ponies? Either buy an EFI system for your 390 or a Paxton (or Vortech) supercharger or do both. Your engine will wake up with tons more hp, using pump gas. Want your car to go faster? Shed about 1,000 lbs and buy an aluminum Mustang. - Dave
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  #20  
Old 04-30-2013, 04:46 PM
KULTULZ
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmij View Post

My son will be home from college in a few weeks. With him helping I can pull the trans and do what I need to. I was considering pulling my console inside the car and cutting a hole right above the access plate to the toploader. That way I wouldn't have to pull the trans. Then when I'm done I could cover it with an aluminum plate and thick gasket of some sort. However, I think I would also like to replace the clutch with something heavier duty so I'll still need to pull everything anyway.

Can you guys suggest anything in the way of a "heavier" duty clutch? The reason I ask is because I plan to have a shop in Albuquerque eventually (sometime in the next two years) build me a stroker out of my 390. Either that or I'll be adding an Edelbrock RPM performer intake, cam, and have my heads ported and matched. I want to end up with about 400+ hp. Right now I have a stock 315 hp 427 torque 390. I also have headers so I'm guessing I'm at around 350 hp.

One more question - if I use my stock sized 15 inch wheels my tire diameter is about 26 inches and the car can spin the tires no problem. Plus it is easy to get rolling from a dead stop.
But, when I put on the cheater slicks my diameter is 28.5 inches and the tires are also wider. It doesn't start from a dead stop as well as with the small tires. I have to ride the clutch a little longer and use a tad more RPM's. If I try to spin the tires with the slicks it just burns clutch. I have a 3.89 open rearend. Is a performance clutch and pressure plate what I need?

I know this is not normal wear and tear for what a car is intended. I will only be putting about 500 miles a year on this car and taking it to RatRod car gatherings. I've only tried spinning the old school cheater slicks on a very remote stretch of road that is safe and out of traffic. Maybe it's just that my motor (bottom half) is old and tired.

Anyway, thanks again, Dave J
The trans has to be disassembled out of the car. The tail-shaft housing has to come off and the rear bearing has to be pressed out. Get rebuild info before going any further. It is unlike a BW, SAGINAW or MUNCIE.

As for your rear, the is a formula to take all the values (tire size, rear ratio, peak HP/torque RPM) to arrive at the desired performance. You will also need a closed rear and traction control device(s).

This will give you an idea about a performance clutch asm- http://haysclutches.com/

Did you get my E-MAIL?
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