Best location to tap power for electric fuel pump on '59?

[simplyconnected]

...I have a vacuum line from the manifold that runs to the tranny, which is where I check the vacuum. When I open that line the engine immediately increases by about 250 rpm and runs nicely...

Your fuel mixture is running way too rich.

Normally, when a vacuum line is open, rpm's go down and the engine runs like crap. The carburetor's job is to deliver 14.7:1 air to fuel ratio.

The distributor determines when the spark is delivered with relation to piston position.

One more timing function happens in relation to pistion position, and that is, valve timing.

So, proper ignition depends on all of your engine components to work correctly and together, including:
Timing chain timing,
distributor functions,
low and high voltage ignition wires,
ballast resistor,
coil,
carburetor,
intake manifold and vacuum line seal,
...and as you mentioned, the electronics ignition (points) system.

We have to find out why yours is so far wrong. I want you to do a simple 'test'. Pull your valve cover off the left side (driver's side) and rotate your crank until #6 rocker arms are dead even. This happens when the exhaust valve is nearly closed but the intake valve just starts to open. Use a straight edge on top of the rocker arms if it helps.

When dead even, look at your damper's timing marks and tell us how many degrees the pointer shows. This will indicate your cam timing. - Dave

[KULTULZ]

Forgot to respond on the type of plug. They are Autolite 45 (heat range 5). I have three sets, clean them once and re-use them, then discard.

And I forgot to cross reference. They are the same heat range as the MOTORCRAFT BSF42C, so it has to be fuel.

[deany41]

Your fuel mixture is running way too rich.
For the record..I can turn my mixture screws all the way to the seat and no change in engine rpms. Question: does the engine run on the secondaries if these are closed off

Normally, when a vacuum line is open, rpm's go down and the engine runs like crap. The carburetor's job is to deliver 14.7:1 air to fuel ratio.

When I remove the distributer vacuum it idles very rough. When I remove the vacuum line that is from the intake manifold the engine smooths out and the RPM's increase.

The distributor determines when the spark is delivered with relation to piston position.

One more timing function happens in relation to pistion position, and that is, valve timing.

So, proper ignition depends on all of your engine components to work correctly and together, including:
Timing chain timing,
distributor functions,
low and high voltage ignition wires,
ballast resistor,
coil,
carburetor,
intake manifold and vacuum line seal,
...and as you mentioned, the electronics ignition (points) system.

We have to find out why yours is so far wrong. I want you to do a simple 'test'. Pull your valve cover off the left side (driver's side) and rotate your crank until #6 rocker arms are dead even. This happens when the exhaust valve is nearly closed but the intake valve just starts to open. Use a straight edge on top of the rocker arms if it helps.

When dead even, look at your damper's timing marks and tell us how many degrees the pointer shows. This will indicate your cam timing. - Dave

If our weather holds out, I will try this as soon as I can. I'm looking forward to see what this turns up. I hope it identifies the problem.

I hope these posts doesn't wear the patience thin. When I put the car in my other storage area, the exhausts left two black streaks in the gravel as I drove off. Good grief! Thanks again! Dean Y

[deany41]

Results Of Valve Timing Test

Your fuel mixture is running way too rich.

Normally, when a vacuum line is open, rpm's go down and the engine runs like crap. The carburetor's job is to deliver 14.7:1 air to fuel ratio.

The distributor determines when the spark is delivered with relation to piston position.

One more timing function happens in relation to pistion position, and that is, valve timing.

So, proper ignition depends on all of your engine components to work correctly and together, including:
Timing chain timing,
distributor functions,
low and high voltage ignition wires,
ballast resistor,
coil,
carburetor,
intake manifold and vacuum line seal,
...and as you mentioned, the electronics ignition (points) system.

We have to find out why yours is so far wrong. I want you to do a simple 'test'. Pull your valve cover off the left side (driver's side) and rotate your crank until #6 rocker arms are dead even. This happens when the exhaust valve is nearly closed but the intake valve just starts to open. Use a straight edge on top of the rocker arms if it helps.

When dead even, look at your damper's timing marks and tell us how many degrees the pointer shows. This will indicate your cam timing. - Dave

The images below indicate the timing marks when the valves on #6 are as you requested. The picture distorts the timing mark location since it is not directly pointing down on the pointer and marks. I see it as 10-12 degrees before the TDC. The yellow is at 6 degrees, blues are at 10, 14, 16 degrees. The second pic is a straightedge across the valves. My car is tucked away for the winter but I wanted to get this information prior to pulling battery and covering it up. Temps are in the low 20's now and a bit cold on the fingers for doing mechanic work.

[simplyconnected]

cam timing

Let's put this in perspective. FROM THE DRIVER'S SEAT (which is always the way we look at cars), your engine rotates counterclockwise.

I asked for 'dead level' on the rocker arms because that's exactly when the exhaust/intake overlap takes place. If you used ZERO offset on your timing chain set, (in other words you didn't advance or retard the cam) right at this point your timing marks should read TDC +/- 0 on the damper pulley.

When timing chains get old and stretched, the chain gets sloppy. This retards the cam in relation to the crank. Since we always reference from the crank, let's keep that convention. (It says, your cam rotates 720 crank degrees.)

In the picture, with the cam at zero, the pointer has already passed TDC. It is about at 6° after top dead center, showing your cam is late. This is just an estimate because we haven't used any positive-stop tools, just our eyeball. It could be a little better or worse. There is another point; your timing pointer or the damper ring may be off. For now, let's assume it's right.

Race car engines run with retarded cam timing because it brings the torque curve to the higher rpm's (which is where they run). For street or classic cars, I like to make the valves happen a little sooner to bring the torque curve toward the low-to-mid rpm range. This gives quick gas pedal response and better torque from lights. You would say, 'your engine comes alive.'

So, what do we do... The best thing is to degree your cam. You don't need to take anything apart (yet) and it's free. You can download a degree wheel from the Internet and paste it onto something more rigid. You will need a piston stop. I made my own from an old spark plug and a 1/2" round stock, 2" long OR you can buy one already made from Summit Racing. For a temporary pointer, I used a piece of coat hanger until I fixed the real pointer.

After you find out where TDC really is, then you can adjust your cam timing. I understand this is a recent rebuild. The timing set keyway tolerance stack-up, timing marks ring (which is on urethane that can move), and pointer should have already been checked.

Is your cam off a tooth? According to your picture, it's off about 1/2-tooth. That's why I would like you to degree your crank. The timing set is definately retarded. The factory put these engines out at zero timing advance/retard. - Dave

[deany41]

Let's put this in perspective. FROM THE DRIVER'S SEAT (which is always the way we look at cars), your engine rotates counterclockwise.

I asked for 'dead level' on the rocker arms because that's exactly when the exhaust/intake overlap takes place. If you used ZERO offset on your timing chain set, (in other words you didn't advance or retard the cam) right at this point your timing marks should read TDC +/- 0 on the damper pulley.

When timing chains get old and stretched, the chain gets sloppy. This retards the cam in relation to the crank. Since we always reference from the crank, let's keep that convention. (It says, your cam rotates 720 crank degrees.)

In the picture, with the cam at zero, the pointer has already passed TDC. It is about at 6° after top dead center, showing your cam is late. This is just an estimate because we haven't used any positive-stop tools, just our eyeball. It could be a little better or worse. There is another point; your timing pointer or the damper ring may be off. For now, let's assume it's right.

Race car engines run with retarded cam timing because it brings the torque curve to the higher rpm's (which is where they run). For street or classic cars, I like to make the valves happen a little sooner to bring the torque curve toward the low-to-mid rpm range. This gives quick gas pedal response and better torque from lights. You would say, 'your engine comes alive.'

So, what do we do... The best thing is to degree your cam. You don't need to take anything apart (yet) and it's free. You can download a degree wheel from the Internet and paste it onto something more rigid. You will need a piston stop. I made my own from an old spark plug and a 1/2" round stock, 2" long OR you can buy one already made from Summit Racing. For a temporary pointer, I used a piece of coat hanger until I fixed the real pointer.

After you find out where TDC really is, then you can adjust your cam timing. I understand this is a recent rebuild. The timing set keyway tolerance stack-up, timing marks ring (which is on urethane that can move), and pointer should have already been checked.

Is your cam off a tooth? According to your picture, it's off about 1/2-tooth. That's why I would like you to degree your crank. The timing set is definately retarded. The factory put these engines out at zero timing advance/retard. - Dave

Thanks Dave. I noticed I had a semantic's problem after I had submitted the info about the TDC marking. Still when I look at the pointer straight down I see more than six degrees after TDC. Anyway you must be saying that that the timing marks on the crank and cam sprockets were not vertically aligned when they were put on the shafts or the slack in the timing chain may not have been accounted for? This is not good news. Too bad this was done over 12 years ago and the car had to sit for quite awhile before I could get back into it (life change).

In my other life I had a degree wheel (some 46 years ago). Perhaps I still have it. Unfortunately, it will not be possible to work on the vehicle until sometime in May, possibly June depending on when the snow is gone and the spring work is done. Living in the mountains can be a drag sometimes. I will print out this email and be ready to. Thanks for the straight talk and jogging my awareness of this issue.
Dean Y

[simplyconnected]

...you must be saying that that the timing marks on the crank and cam sprockets were not vertically aligned when they were put on the shafts or the slack in the timing chain may not have been accounted for?...

Mostly, yes. I say that because of a few reasons:

I assume the rebuild has very few miles on it because I cannot see this car going very far as it was running so poorly. I also assume, a new timing set was installed. You see, we need much more info than we have so we can give more accurate advice. I hate pressing for more answers because I don't know if you actually did the work. I'm hoping you did.

New timing sets have NO slop. They should be so tight, they are not easy to install.

The good news is that this job takes more time than money. You can buy a 'timing cover gasket set' which includes all the water pump gaskets and timing cover gaskets (usually with a new crankshaft seal). I always use name brand gaskets and automotive silicone (red or gray).

Follow the procedure in the Shop Manual... Remove the hood, radiator, fan, damper pulley, and things that hang off the timing cover like fuel pump, gen (alt) and PS pump. You'll need a puller for the damper pulley. Then, the timing cover simply unbolts. At this point, the timing set is right in front with just the cam bolt remaining. COVER THE OIL PAN OPENING.

While it is exposed, I strongly urge you to degree your crank & cam to find true TDC. Then, advance your cam by four degrees. This can be done using offset keys or offset bushings. They only cost a few bucks, but they allow you to precisely put your cam timing where ever you want. This compensates for any machining errors when they cut all the keyways. (We call this the 'keyway error stack'.)

Mechanics don't take the time to do any of this. They simply line up the marks and bolt it together regardless of where the true timing ends up. The assumption is, 'stock parts' should be close enough. Before replacing the timing cover, use the #6 rocker arm procedure to verify your work. As a side note, at this cam & crank position, the distributor should be pointed directly at #1 spark plug tower.

I have changed timing sets in four hours (with help handling the hood). Realistically, you can do this in a Saturday afternoon. Take lots of pictures as you go, and set up all the parts and tools you need in advance. You don't have to disturb the intake manifold, heads (or exhaust). Since the engine hasn't run, 'parts cleanup' should be quick. - Dave

[deany41]

Mostly, yes. I say that because of a few reasons:

I assume the rebuild has very few miles on it because I cannot see this car going very far as it was running so poorly. I also assume, a new timing set was installed. You see, we need much more info than we have so we can give more accurate advice. I hate pressing for more answers because I don't know if you actually did the work. I'm hoping you did.

I sent the engine and tranny out in the midst of restoring the car so it was probably a few years before I could put the engine and trans in. Funny thing is that it seemed to run OK.

Fired right off and still does and would run right up to 70 mph but something was amiss so I did quick external fixes,rebuilt distributer , replaced point system, rebuilt carb then had to store it for long periods due to job constraints not being able to really get into serious problem solving. Assumed rebuild was all OK.

Can't be more than a couple hundred miles in 12 years. My having time and this forum's help, I can think straight about the root problem you are identifying. I soo appreciate it. In '08 took pics to seriously get rid of it, but again no time to pursue. Maybe now a good thing. Enthusiasm is high and have zero problems tearing into it, unfortunately not a practical time to pull it out until winter is over. Many thanks. Dean Y

[deany41]

Degree in cam question

Mostly, yes. I say that because of a few reasons:

I assume the rebuild has very few miles on it because I cannot see this car going very far as it was running so poorly. I also assume, a new timing set was installed. You see, we need much more info than we have so we can give more accurate advice. I hate pressing for more answers because I don't know if you actually did the work. I'm hoping you did.

New timing sets have NO slop. They should be so tight, they are not easy to install.

The good news is that this job takes more time than money. You can buy a 'timing cover gasket set' which includes all the water pump gaskets and timing cover gaskets (usually with a new crankshaft seal). I always use name brand gaskets and automotive silicone (red or gray).

Follow the procedure in the Shop Manual... Remove the hood, radiator, fan, damper pulley, and things that hang off the timing cover like fuel pump, gen (alt) and PS pump. You'll need a puller for the damper pulley. Then, the timing cover simply unbolts. At this point, the timing set is right in front with just the cam bolt remaining. COVER THE OIL PAN OPENING.

While it is exposed, I strongly urge you to degree your crank & cam to find true TDC. Then, advance your cam by four degrees. This can be done using offset keys or offset bushings. They only cost a few bucks, but they allow you to precisely put your cam timing where ever you want. This compensates for any machining errors when they cut all the keyways. (We call this the 'keyway error stack'.)

Mechanics don't take the time to do any of this. They simply line up the marks and bolt it together regardless of where the true timing ends up. The assumption is, 'stock parts' should be close enough. Before replacing the timing cover, use the #6 rocker arm procedure to verify your work. As a side note, at this cam & crank position, the distributor should be pointed directly at #1 spark plug tower.

I have changed timing sets in four hours (with help handling the hood). Realistically, you can do this in a Saturday afternoon. Take lots of pictures as you go, and set up all the parts and tools you need in advance. You don't have to disturb the intake manifold, heads (or exhaust). Since the engine hasn't run, 'parts cleanup' should be quick. - Dave

Above response from Dave was Oct 2012. Have car out now this spring and verifying TDC.

Pulled timing cover. When distributer is at #1 tower the cam/crank dots are aligned as shown in pic. I adjusted cam with chain off to line up dots vertically before degreeing the cam to TDC. 24 degrees from zero one direction-25 degrees opposite direction, turned crank slightly to average out and moved distributer about a 1/2" to Number one tower from prior setting. Measured heights off rocker seats of #6 and within .004. With a slight turn clockwise on crank the intake on #6 initiates. Too soon? Should it be in the middle of the cam baseline or something?
Although the chain and gear appear new at rebuild (links have Japan on them) I have a 1/2" deflection from a reference point. (Motor has less than 250 miles on it). Should I be replacing timing set? Have not tried a key offset. Just want to see if I am thinking about this correctly before reassembly. (reference to 10/21 to 28 2012 posts) Thanks for any reply.

[simplyconnected]

Dean, thanks for the picture as it confirms my suggestion that your timing is off. As you can see, the cam is retarded from the crank by one tooth. Everything looks super clean.

If you simply align the dots, that would straighten things out to an OEM zero condition. Most mechanics do just that, then button it up and get paid. Not me.

I confirm those dots you see by using #6 rocker arm positions. You don't need precision tools for this as it is 'GENERALLY in the ballpark' condition.

It's important that you do this in order. Find true TDC on your crank.

Then, rotate the crank until #6 rocker arms start going up and down. Just as the exhaust is closing and the intake is opening, right then, when the rocker arms are dead level (use a straightedge), look at your crank degrees. Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be. You don't need base circle or any dial indicator measurements. I don't care about lifter preload, either. It's just a confirmation that the dots are accurate. In fact, I don't care if you even have any dots.

Keep your head on straight... factory setting right now, would put you at zero (TDC). I set mine so that the CRANK IS RETARDED, in other words, the cam is ahead of the crank by at least four to six crank degrees. This makes the torque curve produce fabulous hp at mid and lower rpms for cruising around town, and not so much at the 7,000 rpm range. It also helps produce more vacuum.

Yours cam is retarded by a lot.
In correct terms, everything is referenced from the crank, but I tend to look at the cam/crank relationship. So, your crankshaft is wayyyyy too far advanced.

If the cam sprocket represents 360 degrees (360 x 2 = 720 crank degrees) and it has 36 teeth, you're off by 10 cam degrees or 20 crank degrees. The engine will run like crap with no power until you get way up in rpm.

So, what do you do? After finding exactly how far your marks are off (if at all) for a only a few bucks, you can get an offset cam bushing from Summit. You only need one, not a whole set.

The LAST thing you do is drop the distributor. When #6 rockers are even, as explained above, #1 should be at TDC. The rotor should be pointing at #1 spark plug tower.

Want to time your spark? Put the crank on 6 degrees before TDC and rotate the distributor back and forth so that the points are just opening. You can use an ohm meter.

Hope this helps. - Dave

[deany41]

Cam Bushings

Dean, thanks for the picture as it confirms my suggestion that your timing is off. As you can see, the cam is retarded from the crank by one tooth. Everything looks super clean.

If you simply align the dots, that would straighten things out to an OEM zero condition. Most mechanics do just that, then button it up and get paid. Not me.

I confirm those dots you see by using #6 rocker arm positions. You don't need precision tools for this as it is 'GENERALLY in the ballpark' condition.

It's important that you do this in order. Find true TDC on your crank.

Then, rotate the crank until #6 rocker arms start going up and down. Just as the exhaust is closing and the intake is opening, right then, when the rocker arms are dead level (use a straightedge), look at your crank degrees. Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be. You don't need base circle or any dial indicator measurements. I don't care about lifter preload, either. It's just a confirmation that the dots are accurate. In fact, I don't care if you even have any dots.

Keep your head on straight... factory setting right now, would put you at zero (TDC). I set mine so that the CRANK IS RETARDED, in other words, the cam is ahead of the crank by at least four to six crank degrees. This makes the torque curve produce fabulous hp at mid and lower rpms for cruising around town, and not so much at the 7,000 rpm range. It also helps produce more vacuum.

Yours cam is retarded by a lot.
In correct terms, everything is referenced from the crank, but I tend to look at the cam/crank relationship. So, your crankshaft is wayyyyy too far advanced.

If the cam sprocket represents 360 degrees (360 x 2 = 720 crank degrees) and it has 36 teeth, you're off by 10 cam degrees or 20 crank degrees. The engine will run like crap with no power until you get way up in rpm.

So, what do you do? After finding exactly how far your marks are off (if at all) for a only a few bucks, you can get an offset cam bushing from Summit. You only need one, not a whole set.

The LAST thing you do is drop the distributor. When #6 rockers are even, as explained above, #1 should be at TDC. The rotor should be pointing at #1 spark plug tower.

Want to time your spark? Put the crank on 6 degrees before TDC and rotate the distributor back and forth so that the points are just opening. You can use an ohm meter.

Hope this helps. - Dave

Again thanks for your help Dave.
I just used a caliper to measure rockers because I don't trust my eyes and this way I record the measurements on the degree chart and tuck it away knowing that it was done.

I have not had much success yet in finding bushings for an FE. Summit-Jegs and others seem to carry Chev, Mopar, small blk Ford. Will keep trying.

I have an electronic ignition module so I will check on how to do a test.

One thing bothers me a little is after reassembly to see if the pointer on the cover lines up with TDC on damper. I am using a later model damper which is smaller in diameter. Will try to figure a way of attaching an extension during the final timing of the engine.

Again thanks for your wisdom.

Dean Y

[KULTULZ]

I have not had much success yet in finding bushings for an FE. Summit-Jegs and others seem to carry Chev, Mopar, small blk Ford. Will keep trying.

Try Here-

-CLOYES Hex-A-Just® True® Roller Sets-

[simplyconnected]

I have looked for a true roller timing set for Squarebirds for years. Alexander wrote posts regarding this too. Nobody makes true roller chain sets for early FE's (up to 1962). That was when the cam had no post sticking out of the block.

Unfortunately Gary, Cloys is no different. It would be a wonderful thing, but...

Alexander suggested we should buy a 1963 or later cam, drill and tap the thrust plate holes, and buy a thrust plate. Squarebird cams don't use a thrust plate.

That's why I look for used FE's built after 1971. PCV was already there, modern cam, thrust plates, true roller sets and other parts are VERY available all over eBay (just be certain you know what fits).

OFFSET CAM BUSHINGS:
Squarebird FE engines use a 5/16" dowel pin in the cam. Guess what, so does small AND big block Chevy's (according to the gurus at Jegs.com). So for example, if you buy this offset cam bushing set CLICK HERE, it will work in your Squarebird FE engine. With most of these sets, you drill the sprocket hole to 13/32" and simply drop in the new offset bushing. If you ever want to go back to zero offset, there is one in the set as well.

For electronic ignitions, you can use a timing light. Make sure you unplug your vacuum lines and look at your marks at idle speeds before setting the distributor.

Don't ask me why but Ford put their timing marks on the 'floating' side of the damper pulley. There is only a thin area of urethane that separates the timing mark ring from the pulley. For that reason, when I degree my engine I file a notch into the edge of a belt vee and paint it yellow. That is my TDC mark. If the damper slips (as they sometimes do), the pulley will always tell the truth.

So, find true TDC and don't be afraid to alter the pointer. It really needs to be accurate, regardless of pulley diameter.

Hope this helps, if you have questions or something is confusing, let me know. - Dave

[KULTULZ]

I have looked for a true roller timing set for Squarebirds for years. Alexander wrote posts regarding this too. Nobody makes true roller chain sets for early FE's (up to 1962). That was when the cam had no post sticking out of the block.

Unfortunately Gary, Cloys is no different. It would be a wonderful thing, but...

Alexander suggested we should buy a 1963 or later cam, drill and tap the thrust plate holes, and buy a thrust plate. Squarebird cams don't use a thrust plate.

- Dave

Dave, it is accepted and common practice to convert to the later cam drive. Grinders only offer the later style unless you have an early one reground. They are not readily available as very few would buy them.

This is really splitting hairs regarding a simple street engine.

-FE CAM DRIVE UPDATE KIT-

[simplyconnected]

...They are not readily available as very few would buy them...

Exactly. But what a PITA... This conversion is not for novice builders.

This conversion needs:
A thrust plate (C3AZ-6269-A),
a split spacer (C3AZ-6265-A) if it isn't part of the gear,
a proper 1963 and up timing set (hopefully a true roller),
a 1963 and up cam,
two (grade 5 or better) 5/16"-18 x 1/2" button head bolts w/lock washers,
a late model FE fuel pump eccentric,
upper engine and timing cover gasket sets and
a cam bolt and lock washer.

The hard part is locating, drilling and tapping the bolt holes in the block and getting all the chips out, unless the engine is disassembled and can be thoroughly washed out.

No, this isn't 'splitting hairs', and it isn't simply a ten dollar thrust plate and two bolts. Now, who will go through all that for a new roller timing set? Nobody, unless they plan this as part of a major overhaul, because an OEM replacement timing set costs $30.

Gary, you worked in a dealership, how much would a mechanic charge for this change? Add it up and don't forget, the distributor, pushrods, intake manifold and lifters must all be removed (and lifters most likely be replaced) for the new camshaft, in addition to removing the damper pulley, water pump and timing cover. What's the price? The end result accomplished nothing more than a new timing chain set. - Dave