Master Cylinder upgrade?

[sunnybob]

Hello everybody, I want your opinion on this ebay auction, please. Do you think it might work in a 1960 tbird with the air conditioning? I'm worried about the AC box. I emailed the seller and he said it could provide me 4 wheel brake drum master cylinder.....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270556931229?_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649&item=270556931229&cmd=ViewItem&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT&vxp=mtr

[DKheld]

I am almost certain that is the Ford Galaxie replacement/conversion bracket - it looks very similar to the one I tried when I was converting to discs years ago.

The hood clearance is close because it lifts the booster so high. Seems I was going to have to drill new holes to mount it to the firewall or remove the captive bolts and install longer ones. This was to make it fit low enough in the compartment to clear the hood and not hit the valve cover. I believe to make it fit I was going to have to install the bottom mounting bolts in the top holes of the bracket and then drill new bottom holes - but it's been 10 years or so since I tried it. I was lucky to have a shop about 10 miles away that carried one of those brackets and loaned it to me to try - a bit hard to come by in Italy I would guess. Although shipping would be expensive you should be sure you can return it for a full refund if you decide to try it.

Also when I was looking at this bracket it was prior to my adding the evaporator box for the A/C but the plan was to add A/C so I believe I was taking that in to account. I think you will have more trouble with it hitting the valve cover or hood than the A/C box.

If you already have the under dash booster I think this fellow can rebuild it for you at about the same price as the replacement.

http://boosterdeweyexchange.com/

Kelsey Hays 5" Bellows $155.00
(T-Bird/Ford/Buick/Jag)

Good luck on your project,
Eric

[sunnybob]

Hello Eric and thank you for your clear explanation. I saw that Larry sell the under dash booster at a decent price even if the core is quite expensive. Your link is even cheaper but I fear to send my unit from Italy ...it can go lost and then I wonder if it will be stopped by the U.S. customs.

Of ebay solution I liked the idea of security given by the double line. But I would not spend about $400 and find something that can not fix my car. At most I could ask the seller if I can bring it back if it does not fix as long as In August I will be vacationing in California. The AC box is actually a big deal being still thicker than the valve cover and it is the thing that worries me more ... I hoped the bracket in the picture was enough to make it work

[lawyercalif]

While it may clear the evaporator box, it will probably hit the valve covers.
We have done extensive threads in this forum on ways to solve this problem.
Howard Prout designed a completely new bracket that raised the booster and M/C five inches and extended it five inches. Several of our members have built and used this design and it works well. See Post 285 on the following link for the bracket design: http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin...ht=disc+brakes

I on the other hand have tall aluminum valve covers and needed to move everything closer to the fender for clearance. So I designed and built a mounting plate that would rotate an original Bendix bracket with a Jeep extender bracket 30 degrees. This moves everything to the side several inches, rather than up. I believe the bracket on Ebay might need to be rotated to fit. See this link for details: http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin...ad.php?t=12968

[sunnybob]

Lawyercalif, thank you for your advice but I'm not able to build the bracket myself and I hoped in something already done. I understand it will need some adjustment but here mechanics are very expensive so I hoped in a kit or something easier than a totally "do it yourself" solution...

The "Bronco" idea seems good but does it fix a Squarebird firewall with AC or it is a nightmare too? And does it come with drum/drum MC?

[DKheld]

I wish there were an easy answer.

Booster Dewy will sell a rebuilt booster without a core. I think the charge for my stock under the hood bendix booster was $100. I wanted to keep my original booster as well.

Core Policy
$25-100 Standard core charge
$100 - $500 Rare core charge

Splitting the system is a good idea for safety. I did mine when I converted to discs. You will need to do some work at the junction block on the frame under the steering box where it is all tied together but not a big deal

I made my own bracket that bolts to the stock firewall bolts and stock booster holes. I only moved my booster out 1 3/4 inches (but should have moved it up a bit as well). Moving it out only made it easier to extend the pedal bracket 1 3/4 inches. Very close to the valve covers and A/C box but it works great. Different from yours though because I started with the stock non A/C car having an under the hood bendix booster. You will notice also that Booster Dewy changed the face of my booster to accept a 2 stud style master cyl. That was an additional charge ($50 I think). Many of the later master cyls have only 2 mounting bolt holes so be sure to check that.














Eric

[simplyconnected]

I think the stock brake system on squarebirds is terrible because it is undersized for the car. Drum brakes are much harder to control because they pull, fade, retain water (forever), and they are dangerous when pulling a trailer.

Hello everybody, I want your opinion on this ebay auction, please...

I don't like the price, I am not too fond of the seller because he has two 'negative' feedbacks with both buyers complaining he does not communicate.

This setup may work for a restorer with some fabrication skills and proper tools. The firewall bracket, 8" 2-stage booster, and dual M/C look ok but you also need a combination proportioning valve for use with a split system.

I always suggest squarebird owners retrofit with disk brakes because the original power drum system is so bad. Disk brakes will make your 1960 Thunderbird stop like a modern car. Several of our members have done this change, successfully. In your case, you need a good brake mechanic to custom-fit the components to make it work. Part of this job is re-plumbing your car with 3/16" brake pipe and inverted flare fittings. - Dave Dare

[sunnybob]

@Eric: Thanks for your pics . It 's exactly what I would do on my tbird and I was hoping there was already a kit to do so. Could you could build another one and how much would cost, please?

@Dave: About the valve. If I will use a Drum/drum master I will not need it.. Am I right? And yes, going to front disc brakes would surely be the best option. I saw that there is a kit in Larry's catalogue. But what I understand is wheels need to be changed because ventilation and space problems. I saw that people with disc brakes usually uses 15" wheels and I can't do that because in Italy we can't change the tire/wheel size (they are written on registration card).

[YellowRose]

Master Cylinder upgrade?

Sunnybob, from what you said below, it looks like you are stuck with 14" rims... However, the 14" rims you have on that car, if they are the original OEM rims that came on the car from the factory, are not going to work for a disk brake conversion... Those of us who decided to not buy new 15" tires and rims (because, in my case, my tires are pretty new) had to find 14" rims off of other Ford cars that were disc brake equipped when they left the factory. The 14" OEM rims will not allow you to put disc brakes in them. Also, the rims need to be vented. As you said, because of ventilation and space problems with the OEM rims, it looks like if you wanted to go the 14" disc brake route, you are going to have to find some 14" disc brake ready rims off a Ford car there, and that might be hard to do in your country.

[simplyconnected]

I think Ray forgot to mention that he has disk brakes on his Squarebird WITH 14" wheels. 14" wheels allow original hubcaps to fit. There is NO problem with venting or brake fade (right, Ray?).

Ray, tell the man how well your disk brakes work...

Sunnybob, when you separate your front and rear systems by using a dual master cylinder, there needs to be a device with a piston that can 'normalize' pressure. Otherwise think about it, if the fronts are out of adjustment but the rears come in first, the pedal will stop when the rears engage and the fronts will never engage (even though they have no line pressure). The same happens the opposite way.

A combination proportioning valve uses a piston BETWEEN the front and the rear systems. It also does much more: It meters, so the rears come in first, then it proportions (in your case 1:1 with drum/drum or disk/disk - it's the same valve), and it shuts off the ruptured side if you get a leak, so your M/C doesn't run out of fluid. When the piston shuts off one side, the valve grounds an electrical contact so you can use a dash warning light. - Dave

[DKheld]

I'd like to make another bracket but I only trust the one I made for my own car. I would hate for it to fail and ruin someone elses car or worse.

John Draxler at the Thunderbird Ranch had found a couple of factory extender brackets with the booster and may have one still available for sale. Possible he will have the whole set-up. http://www.tbirdranch.com/

I have disc brakes on my car and have used mid 70's Ford LTD wheels that are 14 inch so I was able to keep the original size wheel and tire. I am running a proportioning valve and agree with Dave on installing one.

I went the route of converting with Ford Granada spindles. It works great but I would not recommend that route with the Scarebird brackets that are available today. Check the disc brake link given if you decide to go ahead with the conversion - lots of things to consider but the rewards are WELL worth it.

Eric

[YellowRose]

Master Cylinder upgrade?

Being as Sunnybob is in Italy, he might have a problem finding 14" disc brake ready rims. (Unless his Tbird already has them on the car!) When I got my 14" Granada rims off a disc brake equipped Granada, I got five of them. One for each wheel and a spare, so that if I had a flat, or when I rotate tires, any rim I switch out will fit on those front disc brakes. Here is a list of what you might want to look for in Italian car boneyards.

14" Front Disc/Rear Drums Brake ready rims that will work. Be sure they are vented rims.
14" '95 Ford Ranger
14" '98 Ford Ranger
14" Mustang wheels
14" 1975 and up Granada, or Mercury/Lincoln of the same era (76 thru 83??)
14" Lincoln Versailles 1977-1980 are a perfect match if you can find them.
14" Early 70's Torino or Ranchero
14" 1974 Ford Maverick
14" 1977-1980 LTD II

These come to mind and being 14" rims, our hubcaps should fit right on. If you want to put dog dish hubcaps on like I did, make sure these vented rims have the mounting nubs for dog dishes.

And yes, I have 14" front disc brake ready Granada rims on Rose and I have no venting or brake fading problems. They stop very, very well. You have to get used to the big improvement in braking or you could put yourself through the windshield. I also have a chromed dual master cylinder and 8" dual power booster under the hood, using the special mounting bracket that Howard Prout made for his and my installation, to clear the AC plenum box. Works great! Here are some pix.

[sunnybob]

Thank the many tips that you gave me.I apologize if my english is a bit difficult to understand. My idea was to put a dual Master Cylinder with a 8-inch booster in the engine compartment, splitting the system and just replacing the original MC with its underdash booster. I thought that the valve would need only in the case of mixed brakes discs / drums. In any case there would not be a big problem installing it. I also could try to find some 14 inch wheels that are suitable for disc brakes here in Italy but it will not be easy because American cars in my country are very rare. They were very expensive because of fuel prices and taxes, designed to promote Fiat and low displacement cars. And 5 wheels shipping fee from the USA to Italy is too much expensive. That's why I was not for going to disc. The B plan is to remove the original underdash booster and take it as a core to Larry during my summer trip to California keeping everything original.

[DKheld]

Your English is great - we were just trying to persuade you to go with discs because it is such an improvement. Sometimes it's not practical but those of us that have converted like to tell about it.

Dave mentioned the main problem with splitting the system - once you split the system it becomes 2 braking systems with separate reservoirs and master cylinders for each system. The back could be working great but not provide much stopping power if the front was out of adjustment. The valve makes up for that and balances the system. You could probably get by without it but would have to keep a constant check and adjustment on your brakes. I can understand wanting to have one set working if another failed.

Ray gave the info on the Ford Ranger - from what I remember I believe it was exported world-wide so that might be a good option for wheels in Italy? Maybe you could buy some wheels here - put them in an oversize suitcase - and pay the overweight fee to take them back? May be able to find a new set from Summit racing or other aftermarket manufacturers. Plan B sounds good too.....

Hope you get a chance to show us a few pictures of the Thunderbird riding around Italy soon!

Eric

[sunnybob]

Eric thank you so much. I really appreciate your advices and sure disc are better than drums . Ford Rangers are quite rare too, anyway I could check with a swiss friend. I live in Milan and Switzerland border is quite near: they had more american cars because they had not a national maker to defend so I could find some Ford wheels there.

I will put some pictures of my car soon

Roberto