Starter replacement

[mvonhobe]

I'm fixin' to replace the starter on my 59. Have received advice to have assistance available but not the reason why. I do have power steering and, with the Bird perched over my grease pit and a casual perusal of the situation from a snake's-eye view, I see I'll have to disconnect one of the P/S members.
Any "heads-up" issues I should know about before proceeding?
Tanks!
Matthew
59 Turquoise HT

http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdatasheet.asp?RegistryNumber=13517

http://www.geocities.com/mvonhobe/thunder

[mvonhobe]

RE: Starter replacement

:7 To follow up on part of that post: the recommendation to have assistance was based somewhat more upon making the job go more smoothly than of technical difficulty of one surgeon in the O.R. without an R.N. to slap him tools!
MGvH

[Alexander]

RE: Starter replacement

There is nothing intrinsically difficult about putting in a starter. The reason you want an assistant is that the starter is heavy and has a long nose, so it is difficult to manuever into position and put the bolts in by one person. It is best when one person holds the starter while the other person starts the bolts. One of the bolts holding the starter in next to the transmission is difficult to get at.

Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top

[mvonhobe]

RE: Starter replacement

Well now, I've just emerged from a couple hours in the grease pit with a massive level of frustration. There just flat out isn't enough room to pull the starter motor out along with the starter drive. The front end of the starter bangs against the cross member and the drive is still well back inside near the flywheel.
There's JUST about enough room to tilt the starter down to clear the cross member but NOT quite with the drive still back inside the tranny housing.
I'm now eyeing a couple steering linkages in the area thinking disassembling them might.....MIGHT.....provide enough clearance.
I set the project aside for the day which is what we're supposed to do when we reach a certain level of frustration, right?!
x(

[Alexander]

RE: Starter replacement

Before disassembling the linkages, try turning the wheels left or right to see if you can get more room that way.

I put a motor in recently and the starter was put in without disassembling the steering linkage.

Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top

[Guest]

RE: Starter replacement

Brian Costello
U.S. Coast Guard


I have just gone through your situation and found that by removing the right side motor mount completely and jacking up the right hand side of the motor until the bellhousing touches the firewall u can remove the starter with minimal difficulty. I read this in a manual i found with my car. I do not recommend removing the power steering accuators. I hope u read this before u remove it. If not sorry I couldn't have helped u this time. Hopefully this will help someone in the future. This may seem like a difficult taste but it is farely simple. Please use extreme caution while performing this task. Make sure the motor is properly supported. Try to spend as little time as possible with your hands between the motor and the car. Also make sure your car is supported properly i.e. jack stands not just a jack. Hope this has been helpful.

[mvonhobe]

RE: Starter replacement

I turned the wheels, I jacked it up and turned the wheels, but still some steering linkage was in the way. It anchors by way of 3 bolts on the right inner side wall. Once that was out of the way the starter could clear. Putting everything back in place was very straight-forward.
I recall having a mechanic tell me the power-steering idler arm was in need of replacement. I gave him several sources from which to order and what he got did not fit. He tried another source but got the same thing. He tried the idler arm for manual steering and that was closer but still no cigar. He ended up giving what was there some TLC and called it good.
Recalling this suggests to me that what's under there is NOT stock or original; those of you WITH original/stock tell me you could extract the starter w/o removing steering components. Guess I got my hands on a custom job. To the previous owner I say, "Thank you very little!" TO those of you who offered sage advice I say, "Thank you very MUCH!"
While I have it perched over the grease pit I think I'll change the oil and have a peek at the filter screen...... :7

MGvH

[Alexander]

RE: Starter replacement

The power steering idler arm is easy to get. They reproduce it. Often times you just need to replace the bushings, which are inexpensive. The power steering idler arm uses non-greasable rubber steel sleeved bushings. The manual steering idler arm, which is harder to find, uses greasable bushings. I did once locate a aftermarket greasable idler arm unit for these cars with power steering.

What did you idler arm look like?

Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top

[Guest]

RE: Starter replacement

Alex....

Did you have to unhook or lift the engine up to put yours in? Mine has started acting up and Im dreading what I know I have to do. Its the same story as others here.........It starts fine when cold...........but after running to the store.........I get back inside and turn the key............rr---rrr---rrrr..........in slowmotion. Ive replaced all major electrical components except the starter (putting it off is more like it).........and now the time has come. Im coming up with some designs for some sheilds...........a heat sheild for the starter..........and one to protect the generator from underneath. They will use the existing bolts in the generator braket and the top starter bolt.

[Alexander]

RE: Starter replacement

If your starter revs slowly,it may be more a sign of resistance in the system than of a problem with the starter. Try cleaning every connection in the main starter system from the battery to the starter and the grounding strap. Replace the battery and starter cables - they are reproduced. You may see that the prblem is solved then.

When my 1960 Golde Top was on the lift by the body, the starter was put in without removing anything, but it was a close fit. Each year has a slightly different steering configuration, so it may not be possible on a 1958 or 1960 without removing something.

Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top

[mvonhobe]

RE: Starter replacement

I'm fortunate to have a wife who found a home she wanted that just happened to have a grease pit in the shop/garage. And even if it's only 3' deep and I'm 6'3" it's STILL a sight better than lying on the ground. And with this bird and her '61 Olds 98 they would still have to have some major jacking to get under. I sit on the creeper instead of lie on it!
No, I didn't have to discon. the engine or anything major as it turns out. Jacking up the right front side 'til the front wheel cleared the ground lowered the steering linkages somewhat but not sufficient for the starter to clear them even with the wheel turned this way and that.
I think Alexander mentioned more than one starter model, some with long and some with short noses.
I'll take a pic of what I had to discon. and send it to Alexander and let him see if it's board worthy.
BUT, DO take the time to go through all the tasks he mentioned in the post above FIRST. Don't throw parts at a problem until it goes away; too many shops do that anyway! Get to know the proper care and feeding of your Bird - it's worth it!
After I did those checks, of course, then I got a whiff of something electrically unhappy and saw a wee whisp of smoke coming up from the starter. Gave me a bit of a final clue that perhaps some windings were unhappy - I don't know for sure as I haven't scrutinized the old starter yet.
The shield concept sounds interesting. I found that the top starter bolt took the most time and finger-tip work to back out and install - could only get a combo wrench in there, not a socket. The middle bolt has an auto tranny dipstick bracket to hold also. Good luck in walking out your idea!

Matthew
1959 Turquoise HT

https://www.geocities.com/mvonhobe/thunder

http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdatasheet.asp?RegistryNumber=13517

[1960Bird]

RE: Starter replacement

Matt,

Glad to see that you got your starter in. You should not need a heat shield..I have headers on my car and have no problem with heat. The Squarebirds all came with the long nose starters the newer short nose starters will also work. As to your whiff of smoke...keep your fingers crossed. Matt, I looked your Bird up on the Thunderbird Registry...nice looking Car and Dog, but who is the big guy with the sword ;-)

When you replace a starter, replace the rubber/steel mounting spacer if it is in bad shape. The spacer not only seals out the elements it also aligns and spaces your starter to the flywheel. As Alexander said hard starting is sometimes caused by bad electrical connections. My experience has been when the starter works fine cold, but not after driving the car, the problem is most likely the starter IMHO. Of course check all the electrical first...you might be lucky.







Steve Ronk
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
1960 HT 390, Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake, Shorty Headers, 2-1/2" Exhaust and 3.70 Rear Gears

[Guest]

RE: Starter replacement

Well........

I cleaned all the connections with fine sand paper.........and put it all back together nice and tight. The car turned over in a split second and I let it warm up for about 10 minutes. I then took it for a ride (about 5 miles) and pulled into the driveway.......no problems .......then turned the car off. I waited about 2 minutes and turned the key........ rrr-rrr--rrr in VERY slow motion. This problem started about 3 or 4 weeks ago so Im gonna surmise that the starter (it looks to be the original) is on its way out..................but now I wonder...........

After reading all the posts in "clean that screen" Im paranoid. The shop manual lists excessive engine friction as a possible problem for a slow starter. It ran a little hotter today than usual and I know metal expands when heated..........is my car getting good oil flow??? This may explain why when the car sits for a few hours and cools down.........it starts right up no problems. GEEZ !!! Now Im really paranoid. I will have the car jacked up in the next few weeks to rebuild the front end.......and to remove the oil pan to clean the oil screen out..............until then .........no more driving. I can afford a new starter.......... but a locked up engine would be a nightmare.

[LuckyJay]

This site has been such a value to me lately that I felt compelled to add to this topic. I resently had to remove the starter from the 60 HT 352 with P/S. Did not need to raise the motor but did need to turn the wheels fully to the left. The real problem is getting the starter out. This is compounded by the likelihood that the bendix may not be fully disengaged if the motor did not start on the last try. Since the running motor spins the bendix fully back on a non-start, if this had not occurred you will be fighting the flywheel in place with partly engaged bendix. The starter was turning too slow and not starting the car because 2 of the 4 brushes had stuck. After the repair, the starter guy spun the bendix back and the starter went in quite easily. Wow! Car starts good now.