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Lifters not pumping up

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  • Yadkin
    Banned
    • Aug 11 2012
    • 1905

    #16
    Thanks for the sentiment Dave.

    My son is here for a few days from Boeing's annual Christmas shut-down and he's helping me with this. He's an engineer at their BR&T facility, just received an award for his work on robotic assembly, so he sort of knows his stuff.

    We removed all lifter pairs and checked the block oiling galley for alignment with the lifter small OD, and they are lined up perfectly. Then we charged the oiling system to check for flow in the galley. Each side is fed from the rearmost lifter bores (4 and 8 exhaust), and each adjacent is then fed in turn. After checking the rear bores we inserted lifter pairs 4 and 8 and then checked for oiling at 3 and 7. Then we did this for the next pair up to the front. For #1 and #5 exhaust we inserted singler lifters into the intake bores.

    Kevin Bush installed threaded plugs in all the oil galleries and everything looks fine.

    I tested lifter 5 Intake for "springiness" about it's hydraulic travel and found it locked up at the top, against the snap ring. I removed the snap ring and attempted to remove the plunger. The connecting bar rivet prevents complete removal. After reassembly the springiness returned. Whatever was hanging the lifter I somehow managed to remove. I will do the same to each lifter along with rinsing in clean mineral spirits, then immerse them in clean oil before reinstalling.

    As far as the block goes I'll remove the oil drain plug and clean what I can without removing gallery plugs with brake-clean. Then I'll start out with a fresh filter and oil.
    Last edited by Yadkin; December 28, 2015, 08:30 PM.

    Comment

    • Yadkin
      Banned
      • Aug 11 2012
      • 1905

      #17
      The only thing odd here is that the pushrod lower ends are solid, where the original rods has an oiling hole. There's plenty of lubrication in this area so I don't see the need. The lifter gets oil from the block through the sides, not through the plunger from the valve train anyway.
      Last edited by Yadkin; December 28, 2015, 08:32 PM.

      Comment

      • simplyconnected
        Administrator
        • May 26 2009
        • 8778

        #18
        Originally posted by Yadkin
        ...I tested lifter 5 Intake for "springiness" about it's hydraulic travel and found it locked up at the top, against the snap ring. I removed the snap ring and attempted to remove the plunger. The connecting bar rivet prevents complete removal. After reassembly the springiness returned. Whatever was hanging the lifter I somehow managed to remove. I will do the same to each lifter along with rinsing in clean mineral spirits, then immerse them in clean oil before reinstalling.

        As far as the block goes I'll remove the oil drain plug and clean what I can without removing gallery plugs with brake-clean. Then I'll start out with a fresh filter and oil.
        If you did not see anything come out, it's still in there. You simply dislodged it. Whatever it is, entered under 50 pounds of hydraulic pressure through that oil hole in the side of the lifter. The only way to get it out is by removing the plunger, sorry. So how many lifters (total) 'went bad'? Sounds like a lot of junk.

        This is bitter-sweet because you know there is an obstruction even though you cannot get to it. The same story holds true for ALL your lifters that failed. Solvents will not remedy the problem, sorry again.

        Your pushrods are aftermarket because you have roller lifters that are about 1/2" taller than your OEM flat tappets. Of course your pushrods have a hole. GM cars need that hole. FE and Y-Block pushrods have no hole.

        BTW, say 'Hi' to your son. Did he find your lifter problem? - Dave
        Member, Sons of the American Revolution

        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
        --Lee Iacocca

        From: Royal Oak, Michigan

        Comment

        • Yadkin
          Banned
          • Aug 11 2012
          • 1905

          #19
          The plungers can't be removed because the rivets can't be removed. Looks like some kind of bearing in that assembly also for the link bars. So if I drilled the rivets out, which is next to an impossible job due to their hardness, I'd destroy those bearings and never get a set of them or rivets from Crane.

          Now, after removing all the retainers to release the plungers and soak them in mineral spirits, all but one of them has the plungers stuck all the way against the rivet. No amount of air blastings, rattling, tapping or compression will bring them back down. Must be the check ball has wedged between something- who knows. Looks like another $600 set of lifters out the window.

          In order to prevent this happening again, I'm probably just going to pull the motor, disassemble it completely, clean it and reassemble. I never even had a chance to run it with the valves working properly to even decide if I like this cam, or should I have gone with a tow vehicle cam.

          So much has gone with this rebuild that I just can't believe it. What a nightmare. I've never had luck this bad in any of my other cars.

          Comment

          • simplyconnected
            Administrator
            • May 26 2009
            • 8778

            #20
            Steve, you have my sympathies. This should never happen to anyone. As it stands now, the lifters cannot be used. I would call the manufacturer and ask if they can be 're-linked'. I'm guessing they can if you tell them the story.

            Either way, carefully grind off a rivet or two. You need to see what's in there, just so you know what is in your oil galleries. - Dave
            Member, Sons of the American Revolution

            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
            --Lee Iacocca

            From: Royal Oak, Michigan

            Comment

            • Yadkin
              Banned
              • Aug 11 2012
              • 1905

              #21
              Not a lot of info out there with respect to manufacturer's details on link bar type lifters. One manufacturer states that they are 'not rebuildable'. Guess I should have done that research before...

              New set of Lunati's on their way.

              Comment

              • simplyconnected
                Administrator
                • May 26 2009
                • 8778

                #22
                Steve, are you familiar with 'dog bone' lifters? Mustang (and other engines) have used them for many years. When given a choice I always choose the dog bone type because they do not have a link or a rivet. They simply have two flats and the dog bones keep the lifter rollers square to the cam...


                The lifters look like normal roller lifters with no rivets, and they slide up and down through the dog bones That sheet metal 'spider' you see bolts to the valley and it holds each dog bone down. Ford Racing sold them for over a decade. I used them in my Mustang forever:
                Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                --Lee Iacocca

                From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                Comment

                • Yadkin
                  Banned
                  • Aug 11 2012
                  • 1905

                  #23
                  I've seen them, just not for the FE.

                  Comment

                  • Yadkin
                    Banned
                    • Aug 11 2012
                    • 1905

                    #24
                    The new Lunati lifters arrived last Thursday, too late to install anything because we had plans for the long weekend that didn't include wrenching. So sad...

                    I got right to it after work today. I cleaned off all the gasket sealer with a scotch-brite on my angle grinder and my shop vac running right at the discharge. Mopped up the old oil with lint free towels, then vacuumed the top of the block and heads. Went through again with a half can of brake clean. Then more towels, a second wash down, then mopped up the fluid, then drained the oil and removed the filter.

                    Lunati says do not use solvent to clean the lifters, opposite of Comp and Crane. Wipe clean with a lint free cloth, coat with 10W-30, and install. They also recommend checking clearance with the block; I don't have those expensive tools. They seem a bit tighter that the Cranes but they slide up and down easily. My bores are good- I don't expect a problem.

                    Here's what I found inside the filter. This is a Fram Racing filter, heavy gage, lots of flutes. The overall picture shows a short section expanded out and there are about five 1/4" long "worms", which are grey RTV gasket maker. The second picture is a close-up of one of them. Based on this sample size I'm estimating 100 or so of these worms made it into the filter.

                    I have a magnetic tip on the drain plug and that had about a water drop size of very fine steel dust. I'm guessing that is the break-in of the newly honed cylinders.

                    Keep in mind this is my second oil change. The first one I had next to nothing on the magnet so didn't bother to dissect the filter. So the worms must be my doing. I'm guessing that I was messy with the front and rear intake seals; I did have a leak after all. Maybe I didn't leave enough time for the sealer to set up.

                    I tried a new strategy with those two troublesome seals. The last gasket set I bought was a Felpro high performance set, and came with self-adhesive cork seals. They are cut to fit the casting very nicely. I stuck those on after the side gaskets and trimmed up the ends; I didn't like the tabs that are supposed to fit into the side gasket grooves so they got completely cut off. I used a bead of black RTV at all four intersections, smoothed them out with my fingertip then let set for an hour. Then I put a thin bead of RTV black on top of the cork and set the manifold down using my awesome wood bracket, with the help of my awesome 109 pound daughter. Then I waited exactly an hour at 70 degrees F, and torqued it down in three steps according to the factory repair manual.

                    I finished the evening by washing the pushrods and rocker sets with more brake clean, cleaning with towels then installing. I have the valve covers on loose with towels in the oil fill and distributor hole, all covered up and dust free. Hopefully I'll be able to get back to it tomorrow night, adjust the valves and get the big girl back whole and running sweet.

                    I have not dissected the old Crane lifters. Looking at the way they are assembled and knowing the hardness of the steel, I'm not looking forward to that task. After what I found in the filter I don't think that task is necessary.
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by Yadkin; January 5, 2016, 03:19 PM. Reason: pictures

                    Comment

                    • simplyconnected
                      Administrator
                      • May 26 2009
                      • 8778

                      #25
                      Everyone has his way of doing things and I sincerely hope your job produces great success.

                      Growing up as a young teen, I was in the midst of all aspects of the car manufacturing industry. Either my neighbors worked for the big 3 or they supplied parts and tools. (Dad's company cold-headed bolts for Fisher Body.) I had a neighbor down the street who worked for Bendix but had a heart attack and died very young. The insurance left his widow and sons very well off. One of his sons was about six years my senior, bought a brand new '64 GTO. After about a year he pulled the 389 out and he dropped in a 421 Super Duty racing engine with a Turbo Hydromantic including a shift kit and a stall converter.

                      I learned mountains from this guy because he loved wrenching on this engine and he understood the technology. One day, I saw him using a garden hose on his block and I thought he was nuts. Turns out, that's exactly what the factory uses, dense water under high pressure in all the ports, to carry away particles left in there from the machining/grinding/honing process. They do not use compressed air. Heat from the water quickly dries the metal before noticeable rust develops. Fast forward to today where we have High Pressure Washers that are portable. Want to de-grease? Add soap.

                      After my blocks come home from the machine shop, even thought they are clean, I wash them again. The water costs very little and the particles are so small I cannot see them. All I care about is that they are gone before the oil pan is mounted.

                      Those sealant 'worms' you described are a curiosity. How did they get sucked through the pickup screen? How did they NOT get mulched in the oil pump rotors? I have to believe some pieces DID get mulched into small pieces. Hopefully they were all trapped in the filter element. If you found evidence of metal particles in the bottom of your pan, drop the pan, wash the bottom of your engine and clean the pan before re-assembly. If the 'worms' got into the oil pump, so will the particles. The difference is, steel will embed in the rotors. If the pieces are too big the pump will stop and the intermediate shaft will look like this:
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by simplyconnected; January 5, 2016, 10:23 AM.
                      Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                      CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                      "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                      --Lee Iacocca

                      From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                      Comment

                      • Yadkin
                        Banned
                        • Aug 11 2012
                        • 1905

                        #26
                        Originally posted by simplyconnected
                        How did they get sucked through the pickup screen? How did they NOT get mulched in the oil pump rotors? I have to believe some pieces DID get mulched into small pieces. Hopefully they were all trapped in the filter element. If you found evidence of metal particles in the bottom of your pan, drop the pan, wash the bottom of your engine and clean the pan before re-assembly.
                        Good question. I've also noticed that my oil pressure dropped after warm-up. Time to drop the pan and pump!

                        Comment

                        • YellowRose
                          Super-Experienced


                          • Jan 21 2008
                          • 17188

                          #27
                          Lifters not pumping up

                          I have been following, as I am sure many others are also, your conversation with Dave regarding the problems you have run into. Your post #24 mentions pix, but I do not see any pix. I do see Dave's oversized pic and PM'd him to ask him to downsize it.

                          Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
                          The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
                          Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

                          https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
                          Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
                          https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

                          Comment

                          • simplyconnected
                            Administrator
                            • May 26 2009
                            • 8778

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Yadkin
                            ...I've also noticed that my oil pressure dropped after warm-up. Time to drop the pan and pump!
                            How far did it drop? What is your idle pressure and your running pressure?
                            Do you know your bearing clearances or was that left up to the builder?
                            Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                            --Lee Iacocca

                            From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                            Comment

                            • Yadkin
                              Banned
                              • Aug 11 2012
                              • 1905

                              #29
                              Kevin chose the clearances in accordance with his formula. Instructed me to use a 7 of 8 quartvoil and 15-50 or 20-50 oil. I forget the clearances that he used, but they are on the high side. Upon initial start I had a mechanical gauge installed and it showed 80 psi cold high idle then get to about 60-65 range after warm up.

                              After I got the interior back together and the instruments working I removed the mechanical gauge. The dash gauge was 3/4 at idle then 2/3 when warm. After this problem developed it would start at 2/3 and drop to 1/3.

                              Comment

                              • Yadkin
                                Banned
                                • Aug 11 2012
                                • 1905

                                #30
                                I'm going to take this opportunity to check the level in the oil pan. Filling it with 8 quarts including the filter gets it at the highest mark on my aftermarket dip stick. The engine would burn a lot of oil until it got to about 1/2 way. I've read where the correct level is 2-1/4" below the bolt flange.

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