Swap a 351W into 59 Thunderbird?

[cbnsingram]

I've searched and only seen slight mention of the 351 engine on the forum. I have a '59 convertible that someone put a 390 in long ago. That engine is seized and I have a short time table to get this thing drivable for my daughter's 16th in August (her first car, she has good taste.) We are making it drivable together (out of a field ---- lots to do), and I will do a real restoration for her in a couple of years while she is in college.

Unfortunately the only running 352 I've found is on the east coast for $900 from a reputable yard but I'm afraid that it will cost me about $600 or more to ship it. (Although the yard claims it has only 56K on it I am pretty new at evaluating engines and just don't know if it's worth the risk/cost.)

So, I've been looking for running engines in the Denver area to avoid a rebuild right now, and found a very strong running 351W in a '77 F250 truck for $650 - for the whole truck. The truck drives very nice and has no leaks or smoke that I can tell.

Can anyone tell me what would be involved in making this engine work? Drive trains are not my thing (yet) so please use small words . The TBird has a 3 speed w/ overdrive and the truck is a 4 speed with 2 wheel drive. I do have the original automatic transmissions available from a 60 430 tbird and a 58 352 if one of them fits the "build it fast" equation. I would prefer not to use those, as I will be working on those restorations after this is drivable.

That said, my main concern right now is the short time frame. Will the 351 install be too involved? There are some supposedly running 390s available in the area for between $800 and $1,200, but none that I can start up before buying them. And as I said, I'm not experienced at determining the risk with a silent engine.

[Restifier52]

Hi cbnsingram, I have a Windsor in my 60 but I did not do the job myself and I had an AOD transmission swapped in at the same time. As I recall they removed the engine mounting tabs from the crossmember and welded on new ones that they probably fabricated themselves. Same thing for the transmission mount. My plan called for a new radiator, tossing the generator, getting an alternator and a new wiring harness and a number of other things. I can't comment on the time factor except to say for me less money equals more time. If I do anything on the car it's going to take me who knows how much longer compared to taking it to the shop and paying someone to do it. Good luck!

Rick

[simplyconnected]

Welcome to Squarebirds, Mike. To put your situation in a nut shell, it is always very hard to find cheap parts in a short timeframe.

I love the 351W w/AOD trans combination. But this is not a 'bolt on' swap. Having said that, you will need custom welding and a new driveshaft made for this retrofit.

Let's keep this easy. Any FE engine will bolt directly to your transmission and mounts, even ones from light trucks. The most popular and cheapest FE engine is the mighty 390. Parts are very available and reasonable in cost. Later 390's will fit directly onto earlier mounts, too.

Ford produced mostly automatic Squarebirds. Stick shift models are rare. If you have one, keep it that way. To retrofit to an automatic will involve swapping a new steering column, brake pedal support, linkage (both carb and transmission shift). Swapping a 351 can be done but won't be cheap, and all your new parts will be 'special'. There are still plenty of bone yard Squarebirds to pull OEM parts from.

I never buy a used engine unless I have full intentions of doing a major overhaul. Too many variables cannot be predicted in an 'unknown' such as, age of seals, wear, abuse, etc. The junk yard guy has no clue, either. That 80k could really be 180k with chemicals in the oil. I'm not saying it is, but it could be he just wants to sell his parts. Once you install, he knows you probably won't tear it back out anytime soon. It's called, "caveat emptor" which is Latin for, 'let the buyer beware'. - Dave

[cbnsingram]

thanks for the input

Thanks Rick and Dave both for a quick reply. I suspected it would be much more involved and you have confirmed it.

I think I'll focus on a couple of running trucks with 390s that I can look at for between $850 and $1500. I do intend to do a tear down on the motor eventually. But want it usable from day one in case that part of the project can't be done by August. The one for 1,500 Is a 1972 3/4 ton that has only 72,000 miles on it, so it might run pretty nicely until rebuilt. A remanufactured long block looks to be between $2500 and $4,000 around here so is out of the question at the moment. When I do the full restore I'll be going back to the original 352. And yes, I intend to keep the 3 speed on the column. they only made about 350 of these convertibles with that tranny, or so I've been told.

Welcome to Squarebirds, Mike. To put your situation in a nut shell, it is always very hard to find cheap parts in a short timeframe.

I love the 351W w/AOD trans combination. But this is not a 'bolt on' swap. Having said that, you will need custom welding and a new driveshaft made for this retrofit.

Let's keep this easy. Any FE engine will bolt directly to your transmission and mounts, even ones from light trucks. The most popular and cheapest FE engine is the mighty 390. Parts are very available and reasonable in cost. Later 390's will fit directly onto earlier mounts, too.

Ford produced mostly automatic Squarebirds. Stick shift models are rare. If you have one, keep it that way. To retrofit to an automatic will involve swapping a new steering column, brake pedal support, linkage (both carb and transmission shift). Swapping a 351 can be done but won't be cheap, and all your new parts will be 'special'. There are still plenty of bone yard Squarebirds to pull OEM parts from.

I never buy a used engine unless I have full intentions of doing a major overhaul. Too many variables cannot be predicted in an 'unknown' such as, age of seals, wear, abuse, etc. The junk yard guy has no clue, either. That 80k could really be 180k with chemicals in the oil. I'm not saying it is, but it could be he just wants to sell his parts. Once you install, he knows you probably won't tear it back out anytime soon. It's called, "caveat emptor" which is Latin for, 'let the buyer beware'. - Dave

[simplyconnected]

...A remanufactured long block looks to be between $2500 and $4,000 around here...

I realize I'm in the Great Lakes Area but, our engine rebuild machine shops don't charge anywhere near that kind of money.

Get an old, tired, and worn out 390 for a few hundred. They come up from time to time on Craig's List and other boards. I got one from a guy in Flint, MI. It came from a '73 F100. Perfect for a rebuild because it's a seasoned block. Then I added the goodies. You can go as wild or mild as you like.


Be very careful, though. 352 parts are much more expensive because the ever popular 390s flooded the market. Edelbrock aluminum heads will not fit a 352, but they will a 390. (You want aluminum heads because they're built for unleaded gas, are much lighter than the iron heads, and they disipate heat.) The addition of aluminum heads and intake manifold will reduce ~200-lbs from the engine weight. - Dave

[jopizz]

A 360 truck engine will fit also. They have more low end torque than a 390 but if you find one cheap enough it will work in a pinch. They seem to be fairly plentiful.

John

[KULTULZ]

I don't know...

Have you thought of sending the 352 out for an overhaul? It seems to me it would be much easier and cheaper in the long run.

Is there a reputable machine shop in your area?

You just want the engine redone, no HIPO stuff, right?

[cbnsingram]

Thanks guys - went with 390

I ran across a '76 Ford F250 on Craig's list last night with a 390 and an Edelbrock 1407 carb (looks like standard intake manifold to me - seems like cast anyway.) It runs reasonably well and i got the whole truck for $800. A small shop redid the auto transmission and the owner said, "neh" and gave the mechanic the title. Sold it to me for the cost of the transmission work. So I have a running truck for awhile and a running engine even if no time to tweak it before August. Feelin' lucky.

No leaks on the ground (a bit of fresh oil on the carb side of the valve covers) and no smoke - a bit of a cold starter but managed to idle after a couple of tries. Acceleration from dead stop feels sluggish but feels real peppy and solid if I drop it back into 2nd and hit the gas at about 40 but that's pretty much any car I guess. Runs fine above 50 as near as I can tell - but didn't run it long above 40 on the way home.

I've seen talk that the 1407 is too much carburetor for this engine (and I have no way to tell if it is the standard cam). But what does that mean exactly, poor economy? Can I live with it?

I'm not looking to hot rod it, but am wondering what to try in order to get it a little peppier off the line. Of course, this was a truck used for towing from the bumper and from the bed so maybe it's geared for highway and just not made to jump off the line. I might see a big difference once it's in the TBird.

Any thoughts would be appreciated on getting the low end response improved without a tear down for now (if possible).

[Guest]

Are you sure it's a 390 ...

Could just as easily be a 360 (same block and bore, different stroke). Nothing wrong with that carb, but it is set up for a performance oriented engine. You need to get a jet and rod kit and recalibrate it for your engine or sell it and get 500 or 600cfm Ed carb, or an Autolite .. Check Craigs list or Fleabay. It should also have a manual choke, so make sure it's functioning properly, i.e. closing and opening all the way when operated from the cab. First thing I would do is check your timing and look for any indication of slop in the timing chain and try bumping up you initial timing to 12 deg.. Any idea on the original mileage? It would probably be money well spent to replace the timing chain set and have the distributor re-curved by a pro. Also a good idea to run a compression/leak down test. This will give you a good idea of the overall general health of your engine. Mike

[simplyconnected]

Mike hit it on the head. Your description sounds like a very sloppy timing chain to me, too.

Pull the distributor cap off and MANUALLY (with a wrench) turn the crank back and forth. See how many total degrees of crank you get before the distributor rotor moves.

As the chain stretches, it retards the valve timing and your spark will go all over the map. You want to start with no slop in the chain and the cam advanced at least two degrees from the crank. That's where you get low end torque and quick response at the light. I run my cam four degrees advanced.

When you get the new timing chain set, make sure it is a true roller. They last three times longer than OEM.

BTW, is this 390 set up for altitude? If not, expect it to run very rich and doggy. - Dave

[cbnsingram]

Colorado Truck

It is a colorado truck but I'll check if it's setup for altitude. I'll look into changing the carb setup rather than replace for now - but I'm not sure I understand your intent in that regard Mike. Why would I want to change the performance setup. Not doubting you're right, but don't understand.

Thanks for the tip on the chain. Since it was used to haul goosenecks and bumper trailers it has probably been pretty stressed.

Actually, yesterday I thought of the choke too and found it wasn't closing completely. I played with the cable a bit and it now opens and closes fully so that may solve part of the issue.

I'll do a tuneup and and check the chain to see what's up. It should be a 390 unless replaced - I'll check the stroke.