torque monster

[Guest]

Since I have to tear into. My 390 to finnish a restoration that started and stopped 15 years ago hp is not nearly as important with a curb weight of over4100lbs torque is what gets us moving 428 crank not out of question although balanceing it could get$$$ though what part of hobby isn't degree cam but any ideas are welcome. Thanx. Jeff

[davidmij]

Hey Jeff, I was just looking at this the other day. From what I understand the longer the stroke the more torque. A short stroke will allow for more RPM's and thus higher HP at higher RPM's.
This link here gives a few examples of what to expect from different length strokes.

http://www.coasthigh.com/Ford-FE-engine-kits-s/1302.htm

I'm not a mechanic - I'm sure the others guys on here can give you some good ideas on cam timing etc.

Dave J

[simplyconnected]

Think of the crankshaft pin (the part that holds the connecting rod) as a lever. Now turn the crank so the pin is at 90 degrees. Given the same explosion at the piston top, a longer lever (stroke) will increase torque dramatically.

We can't just make the lever longer without consequences. Longer strokes require longer connecting rods, to keep the piston straighter. So longer con rod lengths help boost torque. Together, they are dynamite.

Enter the Harley~Davidson. They used Chevy 4" pistons with real long strokes. Using only two pistons, they delivered 70 hp and got 50 mpg. This is not a high rpm motor. Cruising down the road at 40mph feels like some giant is pushing from behind and you can feel each pump of his legs. It's an awesome feeling that never goes away. - Dave

[Guest]

torque monster

Dave and Dave thanks was not sure about longer rods thought coast high performance only did small block thought wrong have to contact as 390 internal balenced 428 external. That and found machine shop within 25 miles that used to race FE'S so that's my man was never sure about hyperurtectic until your posted rebuild of penolpe how did it finally turn out. Thanks again. Jeff

[simplyconnected]

Jeff, how's your New York weather? Here in Detroit it's cold and very windy. I put Penelope away until the weather breaks because I don't have a heated shop, then I will jump back into it.

Regarding the component materials I use, I always look at modern cars and modern engines. If we don't get 200,000 miles out of a modern engine there's something wrong.

When Squarebirds were built, if we got 80,000 out of an engine, that was about right. What's the difference? Both engines are basically the same, aren't they? Well, no. The materials are vastly improved and they reformulated our oil and gasoline.

Most engines today have aluminum heads, hypereutectic alloy pistons, moly rings, roller cams, are made to burn gasohol, and run on oil that has very little zinc and phosphorous. Modern engines run a lot hotter with higher pressure cooling systems. Electric fans and EFI helps, too. Totally different from standards Squarebird engines were built to. Put it all together and you get an efficient engine that runs 250,000 miles before the next overhaul. - Dave

[KULTULZ]

If I may add-

If an older engine series is machined and assembled correctly, has a functioning crankcase ventilation system and proper fuel calibration along with a hot ignition and is placed on a proper PM schedule, it will last indefinitely.

[davidmij]

Great explanation and analogy in post #3 Dave Dare. That makes it easy to understand where the torque (power) comes from.
Thanks!

[Guest]

torque monster

Dave thanks for info still cold and windy here on long island. Just started new job 70 miles each way leave house 430 am home 630-77pm

[Guest]

Torque ...

A 4.25" stroker kit and a .030 over bore will get you 445",s. That setup with crank, rods, forged pistons/pins & chrome molly rings, with main and rod bearings, balanced will run you around $1700. Not very hard to get 500+ft/lbs with a very broad torque curve. That will put a smile on your face. Have your block sonic checked for wall thickness before you put any money into it. If you go 428 crank with a .030 overbore that will net you around 416",s. By the time you pay to have the crank turned and polished, the rods reconditioned (personally I wouldn't use 50 year old rods in a nice engine), and new pistons/rings and all the other items listed with the above package you are pretty close, or at the price of the 445 setup. It's good to have a Bad Bird. Mike

[Guest]

torqe monster

Mike I agree Dave Jones post coast high performance has 428 crank based stroker kit all crank rods piston rings bearins for about 1800. Not bad for bottom end wouldn't think of not having at least magnafluxed kit is for. 30 over balancing extra good deal basically parts Dave Dare recommended thanks again Jeff

[BDASTRK]

How about 500 hp and 575 TQ?







Going in This

[simplyconnected]

Yep, it's all good stuff; studs everywhere instead of bolts, the right timing chain, four-bolt mains, rods are really nice, I see a box from Hastings Piston Rings... I'm surprised you are running cast iron heads instead of Edelbrock Performer RPMs. What cam are you using?

I love your frame. Plenty tall and strong enough to tame twist from this engine. - Dave

[BDASTRK]

I really didnt want too run Aluminum heads Dave for 1 main reason..........the Theme of the car. As with every build I do, there is always a theme, this theme is a Shelby designed Thunderbird. I am attempting to do what he might have done with the T-Bird back in the 60's with a Twist

Too achieve that I wanted Iron heads, so it took quite a lot of work and extra Thermal Barrier coating to get the HP that high and still run on pump gas...........which still might be pushing it.

I am not a big fan of the Ebocks out of the box either, so if I was to do a set of Aluminum heads I would probably try to get my hands on a set of Barry Robotniks heads.

The C4 Heads have been fully ported, Bowl blended, and Thermal coated the flow Numbers @.600 are 276/197 so if you compare these warmed over C4's they outflow the Ebocks!

Cam Shaft is a Custom grind Roller from Comp
Cam Specs 282/288 @ .050 .580/.590 108 LSA (hydraulic roller)

[simplyconnected]

Ron, forgive me. Sometimes I lose sight of the fact that many of these engines are not going to be used for Interstate Highway travel over hundreds of miles.

For drag racing, your engine is sweet, strong and gorgeous. I come from an era where we had plenty of leaded high octane pump gas. And yes, 500-6ooHP was common around Detroit because speed shops were all over. All of our engines were cast iron. We would commonly see half-twisted axle shafts produced by serious torque, serious slicks and serious RE gears in a heavy body car.

I have no love for any particular aftermarket head company but FE engines are constrained to a very few choices in aluminum. Aahh, aluminum... the single most saving grace to remedy the ill effects of gasohol. It's wonderfully light and it transfers heat far quicker than iron. Aluminum is the only reason gasohol can go back to high compression ratios using optimum air-to-fuel ratio of 14.7:1 without a knock, ping or run-on. BTW, Carroll Shelby uses supercharged aluminum engines in his Mustangs.

I'm building a 390 using a Comp Cam & Morel hyd rollers. What did you set your lifter preload at? What did you set your cam/crank timing at, and did you measure your piston-to-valve clearance yet?

I like your cam grind for extremely high rpms. You have lon-g duration at 282/288 int & ex., high lift at .580/.590, and lobe separation of 108*. What spark plugs are you running? - Dave

[BDASTRK]

Ron, forgive me. Sometimes I lose sight of the fact that many of these engines are not going to be used for Interstate Highway travel over hundreds of miles.

For drag racing, your engine is sweet, strong and gorgeous. I come from an era where we had plenty of leaded high octane pump gas. And yes, 500-6ooHP was common around Detroit because speed shops were all over. All of our engines were cast iron. We would commonly see half-twisted axle shafts produced by serious torque, serious slicks and serious RE gears in a heavy body car.

I have no love for any particular aftermarket head company but FE engines are constrained to a very few choices in aluminum. Aahh, aluminum... the single most saving grace to remedy the ill effects of gasohol. It's wonderfully light and it transfers heat far quicker than iron. Aluminum is the only reason gasohol can go back to high compression ratios using optimum air-to-fuel ratio of 14.7:1 without a knock, ping or run-on. BTW, Carroll Shelby uses supercharged aluminum engines in his Mustangs.

I'm building a 390 using a Comp Cam & Morel hyd rollers. What did you set your lifter preload at? What did you set your cam/crank timing at, and did you measure your piston-to-valve clearance yet?

I like your cam grind for extremely high rpms. You have lon-g duration at 282/288 int & ex., high lift at .580/.590, and lobe separation of 108*. What spark plugs are you running? - Dave

I am very familiar with the Aluminum supercharge combo's that Shelby ran, I also know that he more then likely would never have put an Aluminum supercharged engine in a bird!

The Valve train is not done in that motor, in was just mocked up in that picture, that is next. I can tell you from vast experience even with Aluminum you are NOT running anymore then 11 - 1 compression on pump gas without an engine management system. I have worked with some pretty high end builders 1 in particular who builds his own Engine management wiring harnesses. The threshold for carb motor on pump gas without a computer is pretty low no matter what material is being used.

Example A/C Nutter this particular builder 2 yrs ago did quite the extensive study for his engine program Max HP and TQ on pump gas Carb LS engines vs Fuel Injected with factory engine management vs his Electronic system. The results where incredible.

I am going off memory here but the Carb motor at 10.5 - 1 put out I want to say 450 crank HP, the LS GM with a computer remap put out over 500 HP and his system which had the ability to run a much higher compression ratio put out 600 hp!

He also did the same testing on his LS with higher compression with the Carb and it was detonating. A/C use to build cup motors and sprint car engines. This particular test I remember was done with an all Aluminum LS.

This particular motor I am doing is a 6000 RPM rev limited RPM motor. The idea behind the Thermal Barrier coatings on the piston tops, In the combustion chamber, on the valves and in the runners is to get the heat out of the combustion chamber and not into the head.................this should allow me to run this motor at its 11.1 design criteria.

This all could be for nothing as the Dyno is 1 thing, putting in a 4000 lb land barge and moving it around is another. This is why the rear end has 370's in it, 26" tall rear tires and will have a gear vender attached to the C6. This should give me the best of both worlds in town and on the freeway.

Spark plugs..............right now the motor for the break-in has NGK's in it, I would have to look and see what the P/N is. I am not an Autolite fan and will probably continue down the NGK road to find the proper heat range if what is in there doesnt work. Still have a lot of testing to go.

This motor still has a ways too go before firing off, but here are the specs.

Forged 4.25 stroke Crank
Callies Ultra H Beam connecting rods
Cross bolt main Block
Comp cam
Harland Sharp Full roller rocker arms
Heavily modified C4 heads with CJ size valves
Shelby Sidewinder Intake
Quick Fuel 950 CFM Carb " I had this custom built by Phil Rapala in Chicago
Pertronic Billet distributor
Pertronix Second Strike CD box and Flame thrower coil
Canton oil pan and Windage tray
Melling high volumn oil pump modified
Oiling system upgrades
SFI harmonic bal
Aluminum water pump
Micro Slick on all bearings, Gears, Piston Skirts etc
Thermal on piston tops, Combustion chamber, Exhaust runners, Bottom of intake manifold and intake runners
Oil shedding coating bottom of pistons

The motor will receive an oil cooler, and a custom set of 2" Primary headers that I will build myself. There truly isnt any VooDoo here and I am not trying to build a Race car that is driven on the street................but more of a Restomod 12 second street car.

The Thunderbird as a whole is not especially well built to begin with, or conducive to high HP and old school technology motor on todays pump gas. So keeping it tame and getting the most out of it without it being problematic is a chore. I left behind a 800 RWHP 2003 Ford Lighting a few yrs back " Totaled the truck " and I have missed having some serious HP of my own. The wife has the 32 High boy I built her, and I have the chopper but the Chopper doesnt get me that feeling and the 32 isnt mine..............so this is why I am here. Why I chose this car.............I still wonder that myself to be honest.................I think it had to do with being totally off the wall!