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  #11  
Old 04-10-2018, 09:08 PM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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Caveat Emptor......... somehow I'm under the impression that most, if not all of individuals viewing this forum subject are shall we say, not "spring chickens" to reasonable purchasing practices; and I do also accept that I would be advised "not to hold my breath" expecting you to be a purchaser here (do you own or in need of this product?).

As already discussed here, the "compression height" is not necessarily used to control the compression ratio (although it will effect such), but rather for reasonable positioning of the piston in the bore relative to the block's deck surface. And this value maybe above, below or equal to the block deck surface depending on intention (see engine builder).

Piston weights are also a topic of concern between the effects one may wish to address in the sum values of the reciprocating mass, and potential cost concerns incurred if one ventures to far from the standard. Sometimes, the necessary endurance requirements may cause a piston & pin to weigh more, so yes, heavy or Mallory metal may be required (BTW my personal record for the number of pieces required was 23 in a single crankshaft!) Most engine builders in performance applications prefer to have the pistons lighter than standard, for reduced inertia and loading on the bottom end components and generally simplifies the balancing process if not excessive. The rebuilder prefers pistons closer to the original sum because often the rebalancing effort, if any at all, needs to be minimal for costing reasons. (confer with your engine builder!)

Again, these are custom pistons, manufactured to ones' own specifications (yes, with some limitations of deviation of course), permitting latitude in specific dimensional sums to fit one's unique application. And, since this is not cookie-cutter product I would not expect, nor advise, anyone to to just "plop-down" money and order such without communicating first!

All of these subjects are only being glossed over here, yet well understood by the knowledgeable, professional engine builder who if not ones' self, you need to communicate with and contract.

And, I understand that some are not experienced in potential if not inevitable failure of the cast Hypereutectic (aka. HYPEREXPLOSIVE!) product but............

Scott.
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  #12  
Old 04-11-2018, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ficinator View Post
Hello all, I have a 59 Bird that takes a 430. I have the engine & I was going to rebuild it myself originally, but I have decided against it after learning of the amount of machining that goes into it. My main question is, are there any reputable/trustworthy 430 rebuilders? Through googling, I have found Barnett High Performance in Michigan, however I have seen a few less than "decent" reviews. I understand everyone ends up with a bad customer every now & then but, I don't want to risk anything with this engine. Is there a base price range I should be at for this?

Part 2: when I finally get this rebuilt, what do I need to make sure is done to the engine so that I can run unleaded fuel in it? Are hardened valve seats the only necessary part, or is there more?

Thank you in advance,

Giacinto
Giacinto, I'm pensioned from a very long career at Ford Motor Co. I worked in two Ford foundries, two Ford engine plants and Dearborn Assembly. In my retirement, I overhaul Ford engines and I fully understand your caution because the 430 is few in numbers and quality parts are scarce or non-existent. That leaves most Bulldozer owners to appreciate what they have for as long as they can.

You are not alone in this. We have many 430 Squarebird members and our other site, Lincolns of Distinction, also has members with 430 MEL engines. We are always on the lookout for quality replacement parts at attractive prices. Ray Clark has done a fantastic job in finding hard to get parts for us as well.

When I find good products and services I let our members know about them. I also caution our members to stay away from un-tried and un-proven vendors so they don't lose money. Simply put, I'd rather deal with 'the devil I know, than the devil I don't.' So, I steer clear of those who 'aren't in the loop'.

Barnett is in Laingsburg, Michigan (just shy of 2-hrs from me). north and east of Lansing. I have not had dealings with them. I know the speed shops in and around Detroit and many of the owners are my personal friends.

Then, there are those who will tell you what you want to hear. After not too much talk, I find out they are blowing smoke so I don't deal with them, either.

Here's a story: A guy goes into a shop looking for an auto part. The counter man gives him a price of $100.
'A hundred bucks? That's outrageous! They guy down the street only wants $80!'
'Then, why don't you go down there and buy from him?'
'Because he's out of stock.'
'Well, when we're out of stock, we only charge $50.'

musclecarcomponents/northernautodirect in Arlington, VA, sell what they claim are 430 pistons on eBay (CLICK HERE). They also claim, 'compression issue solved'. Upon closer inspection, this is the same flat top that Egge and Kanter sells. Caveat emptor. Steer far away from these clowns.

Today, I spoke with Sue Nash (ph.440-951-6600 x3106) at Wiseco in Ohio. Wiseco is a well established company that makes quality custom forged pistons for 430 MEL engines. We went through the numbers and used an example of a standard bore of 4.300", bored +.030". This is typical of an overhauled block. She gave me a price for a set of LH and RH pistons including wrist pins and locks: $1,011.20.

I encourage every Bulldozer restorer to buy pistons from Wiseco because they stand behind their products and they can customize pistons to your liking. - Dave
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  #13  
Old 04-12-2018, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post

Today, I spoke with Sue Nash (ph.440-951-6600 x3106) at Wiseco in Ohio. Wiseco is a well established company that makes quality custom forged pistons for 430 MEL engines. We went through the numbers and used an example of a standard bore of 4.300", bored +.030". This is typical of an overhauled block. She gave me a price for a set of LH and RH pistons including wrist pins and locks: $1,011.20.

I encourage every Bulldozer restorer to buy pistons from Wiseco because they stand behind their products and they can customize pistons to your liking. - Dave
Can we make that a sticky so that others know they are avail and not that rediculous in price, for the guy that wants his original engine, no matter how much it costs over the super common 390?
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Last edited by YellowRose : 04-12-2018 at 10:19 AM. Reason: Sticking This Thread
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  #14  
Old 04-14-2018, 08:24 AM
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Dakota Boy Dakota Boy is offline
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Authentic Automotive in Cudahy, WI. The owner Jim Plimpton is known as "Dr. Ford". Just thought I'd throw out another option.
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  #15  
Old 04-16-2018, 08:57 PM
pbf777 pbf777 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post



Today, I spoke with Sue Nash (ph.440-951-6600 x3106) at Wiseco in Ohio. Wiseco is a well established company that makes quality custom forged pistons for 430 MEL engines. We went through the numbers and used an example of a standard bore of 4.300", bored +.030". This is typical of an overhauled block. She gave me a price for a set of LH and RH pistons including wrist pins and locks: $1,011.20. - Dave
I would like to take this example provided, and point out, as this is a perfect example of why I stated: one needs to communicate with a competent engine builder.

If one were to follow the so-called "typical" procedure outlined above and bore this engine 4.300" +.030", you might find it difficult to acquire any "rebuilder" or "overhaul" piston rings to fit your freshly machined block, and your new, expensive, custom made pistons! This bore intended ring dimension has been abandoned by the leading ring manufactures as it is apparently somewhat unique (383 & 430 cu. in. MEL & ?), and of low inquiry. Speed-Pro Corp. no longer services it & no inventory, Hastings doesn't list it, but does as of today!, have exactly four (4) sets left on the self, being sold out as "No Warranty, All Sales Final, No Returns" sale basis, and post that it will no longer service it. And, that might be "O.K.", as perhaps one didn't wish to use a "standard" overbore dimension (4.330"+/-), or period ring stack dimension (5/64" X 5/64" x 3/16"), made of standard cast material anyway! After all, it ain't 1950 something, anymore.

As far as say a more modern "Moly" ring set, perhaps of some other dimensional stack value, again, nothing available in this bore size 4.300" + .030" size! But, some close to this dimension which may be of consideration. (see engine builder)

As a professional engine builder I am aware of such, and this is why I advised that the block should be delivered to the capable machine shop and/or engine builder to establish the potential final cylinder bore dimension. This value will take into account the necessary cylinder bore increase to rectify unacceptable anomalies within cylinder bores, in concert with available and applicable product, and with consideration of the wishes of the owner.

Wiseco is a fine piston manufacturer (and there are others also), as we have worked with them previously, but as demonstrated above, they will create the product as outlined by the purchaser, right or wrong, as it is not their responsibility, nor should it be, to determine if said purchaser knows what their doing or not! This product, nor any proper engine building execution, is within the reasonable domain of the typical internet forum "I build engines at my house" guru, therefore again, find a competent professional and communicate your desires (maybe, keep to the subject of the engine!).

There are options available, and with an understanding of this, and the custom piston program, one can still generally arrive at an acceptable outcome. But, it probably won't be a 4.300" +.030" bore!

Scott.
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  #16  
Old 04-17-2018, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbf777 View Post
I would like to take this example provided, and point out, as this is a perfect example of why I stated: one needs to communicate with a competent engine builder...
Thanks for this valuable advice but I believe we established that long ago.

The first steps in overhauling an engine involve stripping the block down to 'bare', baking/tanking to get it clean then Magnafluxing the castings. If you're doing these things, an engine machine shop is certainly involved because it cannot be done in 'your back yard'.

Scott briefly hit on the availability of certain parts. That's the main topic of this discussion because the price of an overhaul hangs on 'supply and demand'. A 430 rebuild isn't cheap and we know parts are either sparsely available or custom made.

I made the mistake of depending on an engine machine shop to buy pistons once. They bought +.060" over standard. I asked, 'WHY?' They simply said, that's all they could find. So, my Y-Block has heavy pistons that require Mallory metal in the crankshaft. That added $100 extra to the build. Never again.

The machine shop's job is to inspect and measure the bores and the crankshaft mains and pins. Then, recommend the correct bearing and piston sizes. Normally, the machine shop orders the parts since time is money. They order whatever is most convenient for them, not for the customer.

Most overhauls require block boring. How much boring depends on the condition of the bores. There is no 'standard' overhaul size so bores are measured. Regardless of who orders pistons, they need to be there FIRST, before the cylinders are honed and brushed to the size of the new pistons.

Scott knows that I used +.030" only as an example. The real size required in your engine overhaul may be +.020" or +.040". Truth is, the value must be 'something' and probably not 'standard bore' (+0.000"). I used +.030" as an example to get a price for a set of Wiseco pistons. So, the piston price for your build may be less or more but not by much.

Get your ducks in a row. Rings, bearings, timing set, gasket set, etc., are all parts that must be there to complete the build. As I said, many parts for the 430 are not available or they are custom made. Moly (or chrome) rings were not used on stock Bulldozers so they may need to be custom ordered. These are simple coatings on cast iron rings that extend their life. Ford uses Moly rings in their modern engines and I use them whenever I overhaul. Again, cost is slightly higher and you may need to wait but not long.

Hastings Piston Rings are my choice. They are located in Hastings, Michigan and very convenient for me. They are super easy to deal with and very accommodating. I broke a top ring once, installing it. They overnighted a new one to me for free. With that service, I will not buy another brand.

I know plenty of Michigan farmers who installed new rings in their Ford 8N tractor, right out in the field. I know restorers who painted their custom classic in their garage. Expensive facilities are always best but not the only solution. Hire the professionals for work you cannot do but know that time is money and overhead/employee expenses are in their price.

If you can pull the engine, why not? If you can strip it down, why not? If you can use a tap to chase all the holes, do oil hole modifications and weight-match your own pistons & rods, why not? These are simple tasks an engine builder charges a lot of money for. To keep costs down, machine shops simply don't do any of this in a 'standard' overhaul.

Once I get all the parts together, while the block is being worked on, it's time to balance. Weight match the pistons, then the rods, then both together. Then send one complete piston & rod set (including bearings and rings, wrist pin and keepers) to the crankshaft balancer. I also include the harmonic balancer and flex plate with my crankshafts. When he's done they usually supply before & after balance sheets to show exactly what was and is. A typical crankshaft job usually costs about $125, and well worth it.

Here's a helpful tip: A good engine machine shop is meticulous in cleaning all chips and debris out of the castings before delivering to the customer. After stripping down to the bare block, use a tap to chase all the holes. You will be surprised at how much nicer bolts go back in. If you can, do your oil hole modifications now. The old bearings and gaskets will show where to grind. Look at my close-up insets on the top of this picture:



This is the oil pump mounting.


Notice the bearing saddle hole, the oil pump hole and a tap in the threads. Use a simple burr before the machine shop does their final cleaning. Remember the guy who bought FOUR sets of hyd. roller lifters? His 'highly respected' FE builder didn't make sure the block was clean.

Many restorer/members here regard their car as a fun project. Rather than hiring someone else's time, this may be perfect for learning, teaching and spending time with the younger ones. The final product is vastly rewarding. - Dave
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