Davidmij - Disc Brake Conversion & Rim Problems

[davidmij]

Wow, sorry Dave. I don't always convey in writing just exactly what I'm trying to say. Perhaps I should sue the Albuquerque school system. ;0)
My point about feeling the stages of the pedal "without any fluid in the thing" was to tell everyone that the pedal does travel free and fully without any binding. After filling and bleeding the brakes the pedal felt correct. I did post pictures of my proportioning valve, but I don't know how they work. I was just trying to eliminate parts that could be restricting flow - that's why I asked.
ABS told me that the "throw" should already be adjusted correctly from them. They doubted very strongly that I could have tried two different setups with that problem. You said, "Other Squarebird members successfully use the ABS setup (for years)". That's exactly why I'm using this forum. Hopefully if someone else received a M/C setup from ABS with the same problem they could help me. I'm pretty sure they would have spoke up if they had to remove the M/C and adjust the throw.
This car is just a hobby, and I only have time to work on it every couple of weeks, hence my troubleshooting and follow up with this thread is a bit sporadic.
I agree that you should be "done with this thread". It obviously aggravates and frustrates you that I'm not a mechanic and don't understand how all these things work. Being that I paid the sites registration fee I'll continue to use the help of anyone on this site that would like to provide any input to my endeavors. However I fully understand if you've reached a point where you've run out of patience. This isn't rocket science, I'll figure it out eventually.
regards, Dave J
PS: I'm not sure why you didn't PM me with your last note, it seems like you're taking all this a bit personally. I certainly hope you're not aiming to get others on this site to alienate me.

[jopizz]

I'm glad simplyconnected spoke up about what's been happening about a lot of the threads on this site. It seems that the same two or three people are posting constantly about problems with their cars and totally ignoring whatever suggestions are made. It seems that there are a few people who use this site because they are too lazy to work a problem out in their head or too cheap to buy a shop manual and find the answer. They would rather make the rest of us do all the work. There's nothing more frustrating than taking the time to research a problem and the poster doesn't even have the courtesy to acknowledge it and say thank you or try what was suggested. Sorry for the rant.

John

[davidmij]

John, I purchased and own a shop manual for my car. Tell me where in that manual does it cover my brake set up?
Also, the ONLY suggestion from this thread that I have not tried "ignored" is taking the M/C off the booster and adjusting the throw. The manufacturer advised me NOT to mess with that as the part is warranted and I could void a warranty. They asked me to send it back instead.
Please show me the post where I haven't been grateful and said "thx" or "regards" to anyone?
Sorry if I offend you or one of your buddies, that was not my intention. I truly appreciate everyone's help, (especially Dave Dare) and definitely have gotten way more than my $20 worth. I truly hope one day I'll be able to help others too. Unfortunately I don't know as much as a professional mechanic.
If you have a problem with a few of the members posts I suggest you just ignore them - if that's not doable for you I suggest you take it up with the moderator, that's why the site has them.

regards, Dave Jones

[jopizz]

I don't think any of us will profess to be professional mechanics. The reason we're here is because we enjoy T-Birds and want to help others enjoy them too. None of us is getting paid to read or respond to these posts. The ones who have offered you suggestions are just using basic troubleshooting techniques that apply to any braking system. Every time someone uses non-standard systems and parts in our cars there needs to be a realization that it may or may not work. If you've taken it to a professional mechanic and he can't make it work then continually posting here and expecting one of us to fix it from our computers is not going to make it work either.

As for my rant I wasn't specifically talking about you but just responding to what simplyconnected said and adding my own slant.

[Dakota Boy]

Just an FYI---

When I completely re-plumbed my car's brakes last winter, I used a "Mity-Vac" to bleed the brakes....and I had to do all the wheels at least TWICE before I had a firm pedal action.

I'd probably still be messing around with those brakes, if I hadnt used that magical device.

My new master cylinder was "bench-bled" as per the instructions that came with it.

I cant offer you much else here, other than to say that entrapped air in a hydraulic system is absolutely the work of the devil himself.

Did you ever see that movie "Christine"?


ONE other thing... Perhaps that clutch/brake pedal setup (which was designed for the under-the-dash power booster) will never be compatible with an under-the-HOOD booster setup.

[kuusamon]

I will put also my '2 cents' in this a bit difficult thread.
I am following all threads here since I am rebuilding my car also, it is slow and painstaking, improvising a lot because of not having all the right tools.
I have not come to my brakes yet, hopefully I will get to it in the next few weeks, and next summer the disc brake conversion.
However reading through this thread I have seen that all possible suggestions have been made concerning the MC, vacuum, booster etc. so it should be good.
But I can not hold out in giving some other suggestions from the prop valve to the wheels. Maybe these suggestion sound obbsolete and has probably been checked already.

The calipers and rotors, have they been checked? What I understand is that everything is working except that the wheels/tires are not skidding/Blocked when you put your foot down with power. Most times there is a protective layer on the rotors in order to prevent fly rust. This layer must be removed with brake cleaner. This layer is not visible but it feels a bit sticky.
Check also the calipers if they are not obstructed in any way inside. That the brake shoes can be fully extended without any problems.

Further more as suggested before that it might have something to do with the prop valve adjustment.

regards,
Ron

[davidmij]

Thx Greg and Ron!
A neighbor asked me if I did my own flaring on the brake lines. He said if the flare is "smashed" incorrectly the softer metal can obstructed the flow. As for the clutch and brake pedal assembly - they are identical. Everything is interchangeable except that you add the clutch pedal. Probably engineered that way to keep costs low. And mine had the same under dash booster so no diff there. I'll google the "mity vac" and try that soon, but with new plumber lines I would think the lines are clear. As for the rust protection on the rotors, I did clean them with rubbing alcohol and they have developed a little rust after we got some heavy rain, so I'm pretty sure they are OK. Oh, BTW, the car doesn't pull to either side - it stops straight.
I took the calipers off and put a 2x4 in between and had my wife press the pedal as I watched them move - it all works like it should. The prop valve isn't adjustable, but I still think it could be a point of restricted flow - (I need to check all my line flares there). I do notice that the brake pads are worn more around their outside edges, but I would think they will wear down more evenly eventually. I'll definitely clean the pads and the rotors thoroughly, check the flares, and even the banjo bolts - also try the "mity-vac". Sooner or later I'll get to the problem.
Thx for the ideas gents.
Regards, dave

[REM]

If you get a good flow of fluid at the cylinders/calipers when you bleed them that pretty much rules out a restriction in a line or the porp valve causing a restriction.
It doesn't take much flow to apply the brakes.

If the pedal goes down when you open a bleeder and you have a good pedal with the bleeder closed you are ok on fluid flow I would think.

[davidmij]

Thx Richard, I was actually going to ask that question because I've bled brakes before, and these seem pretty much like all the others.
On one test drive it did seem (sound) like I got one of the rear tires to skid, but I wasn't sure if it was the tires, or stuff in the trunk sliding. I'm going to put that to the test tonight and find out for sure. I still haven't adjusted the rear drums so I'll do that first. If the rear brakes will skid and the front won't that has to tell me something??? The front end does dip when I jump on the brakes, but I really have to slam on the pedal to do so.
thx, Dave

[davidmij]

So, I undid my rear line at the MC and just ran the front discs - I figure that the prop valve should shut off flow to the rear and just work the front discs. It did do as I expected but I still didn't have any power brakes.
So I removed the prop valve and put in the old splitter from the original "one line brakes". I ran the front out line from the MC to the splitter. I plugged one of the 3 out lines on the splitter, and ran each of the other two out lines from the splitter to the front discs. (no rear brakes in the system at all) Again, it didn't make any difference. By doing that I eliminated the proportioning valve as the problem. I did notice while bleeding the air that I had a lot more flow to the calipers because the splitter is just a junction, but still no power. With that kind of flow, and clean brake pads and rotors, I would think that the only thing left (once again) is the booster. But it holds the vacuum over night, and if I test it by pressing the pedal and starting the car to feel if the pedal drops - it does.
OK, I'm going to hook it all back up, adjust the rear shoes (I haven't done that yet) and test it again. Maybe without the rear brakes adjusted correctly the prop valve was not self adjusting to the correct front and back flow. I don't understand the prop valve 100% but I know the one I have is not adjustable.
BTW Greg, the pedal has been real good and firm after I bleed the lines. When I had only the from brakes hooked up, and used the splitter with a plug it felt more mushy. That would be because there was a little air trapped in the plugged splitter. Just thought I would mention that to state that I'm very sure air in the system is not an issue. I guess I could check the calipers etc by putting the old shoe setup back on the front, but that would be a last ditch effort - way too much work for me right now.
thx again to all, Dave J

[Astrowing]

David, can your mechanic put a guage on the hydraulic line and measure the pressure to the front wheels? If you are not seeing 900-1000 psi they won't lock up.

[davidmij]

I don't know, but that's a great idea and I'll find out. That'll tell me whether it's the hydralic pressure, or the mechanics of the discs and calipers.
Something else just occurred to me. I ran all new fluid through the system and now have a good, firm, proper pedal again. I also adjusted the rear shoes per the manual and the park break works well. I took it for a drive, at 25 mph I STOMPED on the brakes - I still can't get any of the 4 tires to skid. IF the booster and M/C were working I should at least be able to get the rear tires to skid - even if the front calipers are not working. I think the drums should act like regular, non-power brakes??? Sure seems like I'm back to the M/C booster thing again. I'll call ABS again tomorrow and ask them if my "logic" is correct or not.
I'll also ask them what the gap between the M/C and booster pushrod should be. I took it apart and it was pretty much flush when bolted together.
thx again, Dave J.

[byersmtrco]

You must have the wrong M/Cyl. You may need one with a smaller
bore diameter.
Mine, I can lock up if I try.
I have my adj-prop valve cranked up all the way so the rears help stop too. Otherwise, she just wants to stop with the front. But I can lock all four up.

As for wheels, my 14-6's clear. I am running 1/8 spacers, because one side touched slightly.

I'm looking at a set of chromies. I may go back to 15's, just to be more size proportionate for the car. But I'll keep my 59 center caps.
1" whitewalls though.

[scumdog]

You must have the wrong M/Cyl. You may need one with a smaller bore diameter..

That is what I have been thinking for quite some time now - it's one of the few variables that does not seem to have been be explored.

[davidmij]

Thx John and Tom. When I call ABSpowerbrakes I'll ask about that too. This is the system I bought from them; http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...AQ:MOTORS:1123
it is (supposedly) designed for 58-60 T-birds. I also bought the non adjustable Ford prop valve they recommended. I would think they have tested it and know it works on other peoples cars. Guess I could ask them for some examples of customers who have been successful.
I sent back the original because it had a bad booster - they eventually replaced the whole set-up. Bottom line is that I don't have enough pressure to lock up the tires - that means either the booster isn't providing enough pressure, or I don't have enough vacuum. My mechanic and the local Ford dealer said I have plenty of vacuum. I guess I could demand my money back based on the mechanics evaluation.
I just hate to take it to a mechanic again an fork over the $$ to fix it.
I'll keep you posted - it may be next week before I can work on it some more.

thx, Dave J