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  #71  
Old 08-08-2018, 07:02 AM
Brushwolf Brushwolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jopizz View Post
Hit the Donate to Site button in the upper right corner.

John
Done.. I'll start my own project thread on the car when I go to the farm and trailer it back here - and figure out how to post pics.

It is a white 59 with PS, PB, AC car originally from AZ, so it's body is pretty darn solid. Has a knocking 1968 390 and slipping C6 in it currently.

Interior had been re-done by a PO in black vinyl, but is now trashed because it had mice in it before I got it.

Leaning toward putting it back to black and white interior as original and because it reminds me of a white 60 TBird with B&W interior that I had way back around 1971..
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  #72  
Old 08-08-2018, 09:14 PM
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simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brushwolf View Post
...Dave, I know you recommend the 8" booster, but are still using a 7" booster on your 59 Galaxie and that car weighs close to what a 59 TBird does.

Yet, you say both your cars (one with 8" booster and one with 7" booster) have a similar brake feel and both function well. That would seem to indicate the smaller booster will work in a pinch, if space constraints just don't allow fitting an 8" booster...
Mike, originally I tried the 7" dual diaphragm booster, then switched to the 8" dual diaphragm booster. I'm glad I did because of two truths; you want to use the largest booster that will fit and the difference between the 7" and 8" dual diaphragm boosters is significant, especially when you do the math.

Let's put things in perspective. You don't always drive with your gas pedal to the floor nor do you stand on your brake pedal every time you stop. These cars were produced with crappy manual brakes that worked, but just barely IMHO. Folks even pulled trailers with them, which makes my skin crawl whenever I see a trailer hitch on a Squarebird. When you need all the boost you can get, depend on the 8" dual diaphragm booster because it works well. There isn't much difference in outer diameter with the 7". We've been here before.

Our '55 Customline wears Granada spindles and brakes. Our '59 Galaxie uses Scarebird brackets and S-10 brakes. BOTH use 8" dual diaphragm boosters, now.

I took this project on because there were no real 'power disk brake kits' available for the Squarebird. Some kits claimed to fit but they simply did not Just about every other car was covered but not the SB. I couldn't believe it so I jumped in with both feet.

After Howard designed the firewall bracket, we noticed that the ABS bracket is nearly identical as far as dimensions on, how far it raises the booster and how far it pushes the booster away from the firewall. Both brackets eliminate the need for further spacers, both work with A/C and both fit Squarebirds with MEL and FE engines. The firewall bracket would have been easier to design IF we could cut the firewall but we ruled that out. Think of the firewall bracket as an offset that tends to flex or straighten itself out under high pedal pressure. Any flex feels like pedal sponge so the bracket must be rigid.

You may have spent four hours reading our posts but we spent many MONTHS improving our firewall bracket. Ray's bracket was built to an earlier version. We tried purchasing just the firewall brackets from ABS. They wanted minimum order quantities of TEN at outrageous prices. Since we already have a diagram and two working examples, we dropped it right there. Besides, anyone with an OEM 1960 power brake system already has all the parts needed from the firewall bracket to the pedal. - Dave
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  #73  
Old 08-09-2018, 04:32 AM
Brushwolf Brushwolf is offline
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I realize that a lot of time has been spent by many members over many years in upgrading and modifying their cars to keep up with modern traffic conditions. So, I do appreciate receiving the benefits of those efforts.

An old car afficionado all my life, but until I retired last year the cars still took a backseat while raising two families and remaining employed in a stressful environment, getting a graduate degree toward that end and just life happens...

Since then, I have had a couple health scares that made me realize I may not be able to do what I consider "fun" for that much longer. So, if I come across as "in a hurry" it is because I am more acutely aware than ever that time is running out faster than ever. No disrespect intended.

Ordered the Scarebird brackets today, but their website says they are about 3 weeks behind, so IDK if there will be a delay in that. Ordered all the other disk brake parts (except the MC and booster) from Rock Auto today as well.

Could probably have saved a little money avoiding shipping cost by going shopping for the rotors and calipers in nearby towns, but it's just easier to have the parts come to me and they usually don't stock a lot of stuff in stores that isn't sold every day, so it often takes two trips..

Will leave the MC until last to see if an 8" will clear the 460 valve covers. It is only a half inch more on each side over a 7", but like Stan at FPA says "a 1/4" inch difference can ruin your day".

I have Ray's very detailed diagrams that Howard created and can also likely find a 1960 booster with the brackets on it too, so one of those may resolve the bracket issue.

Have also bookmarked a couple chromed dual diaphragm boosters with MC and proportioning valve/brake switch already plumbed together for convenience sake.

My understanding is that I should use a 10 lb residual pressure valve on rear circuit, but that I could skip that component - if I add self-adjusters to the rear brakes.

Dave, did you remove the steering column on your 59 and 55 to machine the "D" shape to fit the Borgeson parts and if not how did you get it shaped correctly while it was in the car?

Looks like from your pics on the R&P thread that the rack mounts as far leftward as it will go and since that moves center rack attachment points off-center, you made a bracket attaching to rack center that moved the tie rod connections back to center.

Would be great if sometime when you have either car on a lift for oil change or whatever, if you could snap a few R&P pics underneath the car and post to the most recent R&P conversion thread.

Thanks again, Mike
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  #74  
Old 08-09-2018, 01:55 PM
p38fighter p38fighter is offline
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59 convertible
I just received my kit from Scarebird yesterday. Ordered it end of last week.
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  #75  
Old 08-09-2018, 07:22 PM
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When I retrofit rack-and-pinion steering, I had the engine out so I could sit on the #2 crossmember. I pulled the steering shaft up then cut the tube and inserted a nylon bushing for my lower bearing. The rack gear already came with accommodations for the straight tie rods and heim joints that I bought from speedwaymotors.com. So, the new tie rods hug the back of the #2 crossmember much the same as the OEM tie rods did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brushwolf View Post
I realize that a lot of time has been spent by many members over many years in upgrading and modifying their cars to keep up with modern traffic conditions...
Actually Mike, I was referring to the time and effort Howard, Ray and I spent in the design, build and tryout for the FIRST firewall bracket. There were no suppliers for Squarebird owners, so we had to make our own. Then, came many power disk brake retrofits.

DKheld (Eric Taylor) was another very valuable pioneer in this but he used Granada spindles and brakes on his SB WITH his OEM 10" booster (designed for drum brakes). Those who had 'under the dash' bellows boosters were simply out of luck.

I keep writing about this wonderful dual 8" booster but I don't think you're getting 'where the 8" comes from'. Here is a two stage booster retrofit on an OEM firewall bracket:



Notice:
  • It has 2" spacers behind the booster because of hole-center differences. The spacers could be shorter,
  • The 'step' in the body of the booster (for the second diaphragm),
  • The major diameter (10") is only at the flange, 8" is in the middle, then it tapers to a smaller diameter,
  • How close it is to this FE valve cover.
Straight boosters are shorter and have no 'step' in the body:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 01a.jpg (135.3 KB, 120 views)
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  #76  
Old 08-10-2018, 07:00 AM
Brushwolf Brushwolf is offline
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Default Booster clearance and R&P

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
When I retrofit rack-and-pinion steering, I had the engine out so I could sit on the #2 crossmember. I pulled the steering shaft up then cut the tube and inserted a nylon bushing for my lower bearing.
Yes, I saved the pics and bookmarked the thread they were in. I have lots of metal working/fabrication tools, but not a lathe, so will find a bearing to use there just cause it's easier for me. How did you shape the "D" into the shaft itself?
Quote:
The rack gear already came with accommodations for the straight tie rods and heim joints that I bought from speedwaymotors.com. So, the new tie rods hug the back of the #2 crossmember much the same as the OEM tie rods did.
I noticed that they looked like they were very close to the same geometry as the OEM inner tie rods. The bracket your Speedway tie rods attach to didn't come with it though, right?

Have been looking at pics of racks and see it looks like it has a couple bolt holes only at tie rod attachment points.

Or does the Speedway-provided unit have that bracket already? I had been looking at the 22109 cavalier rack on Rock Auto being I saw that part number mentioned.

Quote:
I was referring to the time and effort Howard, Ray and I spent in the design, build and tryout for the FIRST firewall bracket. There were no suppliers for Squarebird owners, so we had to make our own.
Yes, I gathered that it is probably easier to just use an OEM 1960 firewall side booster bracket to replace or add to the Kelsey Hayes bellow setup.

But, I have the detailed bracket spec's from Ray to work from and change slightly if the stock firewall side bracket won't work with my engine.

AC plenum retention doesn't appear to be a problem using the firewall bracket and pivot mechanism as delivered in OEM profile though and apparently the same bracket also clears a taller 430.

Although the KH bellows booster won't provide sufficient brake assist alone, wouldn't retaining it along with a new firewall side booster of any diameter actually increase the brake assist using both boosters, rather than discarding it?

Quote:
DKheld (Eric Taylor) was another very valuable pioneer in this but he used Granada spindles and brakes on his SB WITH his OEM 10" booster (designed for drum brakes). Those who had 'under the dash' bellows boosters were simply out of luck.
I installed a Granada disk brake conversion (including spindles)on a 65 Fairlane Sport Coupe, but that didn't have AC or the booster complications, as they were unboosted brakes.

Harder to find those spindles now. I have a spare 68 Torino set of spindles though I don't see any advantage to changing spindles when using the Scarebird kit.

Quote:
I keep writing about this wonderful dual 8" booster but I don't think you're getting 'where the 8" comes from'. Here is a two stage booster retrofit on an OEM firewall bracket:

Good pic, didn't have one from that angle before. Saved to project folder on IPad. Actually looks spacious compared to my 73 Mustang with 460 and same valve covers as Greg though..

Quote:
[*]It has 2" spacers behind the booster because of hole-center differences. The spacers could be shorter,
If the spacers were shorter, what would you do to compensate for booster activation rod then being correspondingly too long?

Quote:
[*]The 'step' in the body of the booster (for the second diaphragm),[*]The major diameter (10") is only at the flange, 8" is in the middle, then it tapers to a smaller diameter,
Yep, had concluded that boosters without the 'step' were single stage. I was uncertain if the diameter referred to the booster 'seam' flange, or the diameter of the larger diaphragm. Now I know..

Quote:
[*]How close it is to this FE valve cover.
Yes, that was one of my concerns, but that pic angle makes it appear that the larger 10" diameter of booster joining flange looks like it sits far to the rear of the engine/trans coupling point.

Even the 8" diameter of the larger diaphragm sits behind that. Looks promising...

And even with longer 385 series motor, the engine/trans coupling point front-to-back probably stays there relative to brake booster position. Unless bell depth on a 385 series C6 trans and an FE C6 trans differ. Coupling point may move forward if it moves at all, judging from Greg's clearance between C6 and lower firewall.

Thanks again Dave,

Mike

Last edited by Brushwolf : 08-10-2018 at 07:27 AM.
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  #77  
Old 08-10-2018, 07:46 AM
Brushwolf Brushwolf is offline
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Default Scarebird kit wait time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by p38fighter View Post
59 convertible
I just received my kit from Scarebird yesterday. Ordered it end of last week.
Yeah, that website "potential delay" notice is probably intended for items they don't produce and sell a lot of.

But, I still have to go out and bring the car back from 140 miles away and pull motor and trans, replace all the ball joints and A frame bushings, clean everything up, paint the parts, etc...

So even if it takes a few weeks, the delay probably wouldn't matter.

Thanks, Mike
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  #78  
Old 08-17-2018, 04:44 PM
Brushwolf Brushwolf is offline
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Got all my brake parts including Scarebird brackets, but still waiting for front end suspension rebuild kit ordered from Kantor...
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  #79  
Old 08-17-2018, 11:38 PM
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simplyconnected simplyconnected is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brushwolf View Post
...How did you shape the "D" into the shaft itself?
I used a simple Harbor Freight angle grinder to cut both sides of a round shaft into a 'Double-D'. Cut a rough shape, then whittle a little at a time while checking with a dial caliper or micrometer. I love using bluing (layout) ink to show high spots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brushwolf View Post
...The bracket your Speedway tie rods attach to didn't come with it though, right?
Have been looking at pics of racks and see it looks like it has a couple bolt holes only at tie rod attachment points.
Or does the Speedway-provided unit have that bracket already? I had been looking at the 22109 cavalier rack on Rock Auto being I saw that part number mentioned.
You can make a couple spacers for your heim joints to bolt to the rack gear. Get the rack gear home. If you need to make a spacer, so be it. The important part comes when ordering your tie rods. Call Speedway and ask them HOW TO MEASURE tie rod lengths before you order. They make any length you want but YOUR method of measuring is probably different from theirs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brushwolf View Post
...Yes, I gathered that it is probably easier to just use an OEM 1960 firewall side booster bracket to replace or add to the Kelsey Hayes bellow setup.
Although the KH bellows booster won't provide sufficient brake assist alone, wouldn't retaining it along with a new firewall side booster of any diameter actually increase the brake assist using both boosters, rather than discarding it?..[/quote]Been through this before and I'm leaving it up to you. If you feel a difference, keep the bellows. Let us know your findings. - Dave
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  #80  
Old 08-18-2018, 10:25 AM
Brushwolf Brushwolf is offline
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Default Parts much..

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyconnected View Post
I used a simple Harbor Freight angle grinder to cut both sides of a round shaft into a 'Double-D'. Cut a rough shape, then whittle a little at a time while checking with a dial caliper or micrometer. I love using bluing (layout) ink to show high spots.
You can make a couple spacers for your heim joints to bolt to the rack gear. Get the rack gear home. If you need to make a spacer, so be it. The important part comes when ordering your tie rods. Call Speedway and ask them HOW TO MEASURE tie rod lengths before you order. They make any length you want but YOUR method of measuring is probably different from theirs. - Dave
Yes, I was reading how Speedway does that measurement yesterday. Odd.. Measure as if the ends are installed, center to center of Heim pivot point, though they aren't installed. Then they apparently deduct for that difference. Will return to that later.

OK, I ordered the Cavalier 22109 rack and rubber bushings for it, Heim joints and locking nuts, a few spacers (cheap..) and will leave the U-joints, steering couplers for column and rack - and the tie rods until the brackets are made and can mock it up.

Have some Prussian blue on hand but haven't figure out for sure what diameter the steering shaft is, so will order that and remainder of parts when I have original steering gear out.

Also ordered new coil springs and spring cushions for a 430 w/o AC, since the 460 is probably 40 lbs lighter than a 430 when using an aluminum intake. But adding back the weight of the factory AC at least partially offsets that.

Probably will get new rear leaf springs too, but will wait with that and rear brake overhaul until the motor is in.

Of course, if a cast iron CM really weighs 220 lbs compared to 145 lbs for the C6 being used, that is another 75 lbs less with probably more than half that trans weight differential coming off the front, so 430 spring could be a little stiff, but I'd rather risk it being a bit stiff than a bit mushy using an FE spring.

Thanks, Mike
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