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  #1  
Old 08-07-2004, 06:49 PM
Travlin Travlin is offline
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Default Fore core radiators

This is from an old post on the board but I thought with some folks working on their cooling systems that this might have some relevance:

>I have heard of four core radiators in Squarebirds, but I
>don't know if it looks stock or how it fits as I have never
>seen one.
>
>Alexander
>1959 Hardtop
>1960 Golde Top

I recently purchased the original three core radiator from a gentleman in S.C.

In a recent e-mail he says:

"I wanted to let you know the new 4 core radiator I bought made absolutely no difference in my '59 so the 3 core you bought from me should be fine.

I might try a transmission cooler or electric fans next. Only gets hot when stopped."

I advised him that if he went with an electric fan that he'd want to do the generator to alternator swap that Alexander has talked about. He also added a six bladed fan so I mentioned that adding a fan shroud might help.

As an aside -- I seem to recall reading somewhere that race cars don't use a conventional thermostat -- That they used to stick a large washer in the housing -- Apparently it was supposed to be enough to slow the water flow down so that it would sufficently cool enough while still keeping the engine hot enough to operate at peak. Makes me wonder how that might work in a Bird.

Alexander, do you have the alt swap how-to somewhere on this site?

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  #2  
Old 08-08-2004, 12:25 AM
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Default RE: Generator to Alternator conversion

An article on how to do this on Galaxies is at
http://www.galaxieclub.com/alternator-conversion.html

You will want to get one of these brackets for the alternator:
http://www-link.com/cgi-bin/odbic.ex...lientno=1681.0 .

You may want to read these articles on how to wire up a one wire alternator on a car that previously had a generator: http://mightymo.org/Proj_OneWire.html & http://www.film.queensu.ca/CJ3B/Alternator.html .

If anyone does an alternator converison on a T-gird, please take some pictures and e-mail me. I will post it on the technical area of the main site.

Any repair work that you do on your car, it would be appreciated if you document it photographically. Others can learn from it.

Thanks,
Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top
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  #3  
Old 08-08-2004, 04:54 PM
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Default fan shroud...

I am not sure if what follows is common knowledge or not but here goes: I am looking at the catalogue for "Larry's Thunderbird" parts. He, like others, has included many copies of Ford parts diagrams. The one on page 39 is for cooling system parts. In it is a fan shroud, actually 2 pieces. The parts are numbers 8147 and 8148, with an asterisk for "air conditioning".

It might be interesting if someone has Galaxie parts diagrams, for example, to see if the same numbers were used, thus possibly increasing the chance of one turning up.

john
58 Hardtop
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  #4  
Old 08-09-2004, 12:16 AM
Travlin Travlin is offline
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Default RE: Generator to Alternator conversion

Thanks Alexander ... I forwarded the information you provided to him.
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Old 08-09-2004, 10:09 AM
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Default RE: Fore core radiators

My effie with a flathead eight engine is notorious for over heating.

The common comment is that with two oversized water pumps on the engine (one for each cylinder bank) that the water moves throught the radiator to fast and is not allowed enough contact time for proper heat transfer.

Threads on F-1 boards for my series of truck have talked about the same washer thing to better control the flow. I haven't tried it. I have the thing so it sort of works OK by making the radiator shroud in good condition and making it in to a fluid system with a coolant resivoir.
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  #6  
Old 08-09-2004, 10:43 AM
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Default RE: Fore core radiators

For years, I have heard that old-wives-tale of the coolant moving too fast to provide heat transfer. Physically that simply is not true. What happens when one removes the thermostat is that one removes resistance. If there is no resistance, the water pump cannot do work. If the water pump does not pump adequately, the car overheats. That is why a washer type restriction actually aids cooling and also why high output water pumps help solve overheating problems.

I saw a few flathead Fords at a local car show recently. That two water pump setup is odd, especially since the waterpumps double as motor mounts. One owner of a flathead Ford told me that he knows someone who makes adapters to put six cylinder Ford water pumps in place of each of the stock water pumps. This is done for race applications. If increasing the flow of the coolant causes less heat transfer, this modification would cause cooling problems instead of solving them.

Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top
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Old 08-09-2004, 11:57 AM
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Default RE: Fore core radiators

The goal of the whole system is to transfer heat from the
engine, via the coolant, to the air by way of the radiator.
So the hot coolant needs to be in the radiator an adequate amount of time so that the heat can transfer take place. The radiator has some heat transfer rate associated with it, dependent upon its materials and surface area.(the word "rate" here is impotant - having units of something like BTUs per minute). If the hot coolant is not there long enough then the heat cannot transfer out. For these reasons I believe Alexander to be correct in advocating a higher rate pump in conjuction with a proper thermostat. The thermostat then becomes the judge of what flow rate is proper.

In any event, the more air flow through the radiator, the better, so any gains made by either more fan blades or a shroud can only help matters.

Alexander, how did you make out with that shroud you were chasing on Ebay??
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  #8  
Old 08-09-2004, 02:25 PM
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Default RE: Fore core radiators

I am patiently waiting for my fan shroud. It was shipped out on Friday. I expect to get it before my rechromed tail light bezels. :)

The following is response by an engineer about engine cooling on another board. He brings up several good points. In my experience with my Squarebirds, and cars in general, is that engine gets hottest on a hot day when the car is stuck in traffic, a situation when coolant flow and airflow through the radiator are their lowest. It drops as I get back moving, when coolant flow and airflow is increased, even though engine heat output aloso increases.


http://lists.twistedpair.ca/pipermai...il/002499.html

From: Brad and Lisa Morgan <morganb@kdn0.attnet.or.jp>


I don't know if this is true but a mechanic told me years ago that a
thermostat stuck in the open position could cause overheating because it
lets the coolant flow through the system (mainly the radiator) too
quickly so that it never has a chance to cool properly. I guess with
the coolant rushing through at full blast all the time, the radiator
doesn't have time to drop the operating temp.

i've heard this too [many times], and like you i'm puzzled: if the
coolant is flowing too fast through the radiator to cool much, why
isn't it flowing too fast through the engine to heat up much?

++++++++++++++

Answer:
[Sorry for the bandwidth waste.]

As a chemical engineer, I couldn't help but respond to this theoretical
question. This is a typical forced convection heat transfer problem that many a
chemical engineer has struggled over. All this technical mumbo-jumbo comes from
my handy-dandy Perry's Chemical Engineer's Handbook.

Given that the water pump moves water fast, this is probably a turbulent flow
situation. The heat transfer from the engine block to the coolant can be
simplistically represented by the equation

q = heat transfer coefficient x area of heat transfer x temp difference

where q is the heat transfer rate, say in BTU's over some unit of time. As q
gets larger, more heat is being removed from the engine to the water.

To complicate things further, my Perry's gives the following equation for heat
transfer coefficient (h) of water:

h = constant + a x water temp x flowrate / diameter of water passage

This equations says that as the water temperature and/or water flowrate goes up,
the heat transfer rate goes up. But this is offset by the temperature
difference factor (as the water temperature goes up, the temperature difference
goes down, assuming your engine temperature is constant).

So much for help from Perry's.

The heat transfer from the engine is probably best visualized when it reaches
steady state, say driving down the freeway, with no stop-n-go traffic. Thus the
water temperature is relatively constant, and is balanced by the heat put into
the water from the engine and the heat lost through the radiator. Let's look at
these sources and losses more closely.

Engines are very dynamic systems when it comes to heat transfer. As you
increase the speed of your car, air rushes over the outside of the engine
faster, thus cooling the engine. But in order to get to higher speeds, you car
burns more gas, has more friction, thus generating more heat. Also as you
increase your speed, the water pump spins faster, thus pumping water at a faster
rate, thus leading (in general) to more cooling capability.

Looking at it a little more deeply, if the water temperature is getting hotter
out of the engine, then it probably is hotter coming out of the radiator, which
then goes back into the engine hotter, etc, until ultimately equilibrium is
attained. Another dynamic is that as the radiator removes more heat, the air
that rushes by it during driving is warmed up, and as it rushes past the engine,
does not cool off the engine as much as if the air were colder.

Another problem, especially with older cars, is a buildup of gunk, scale, etc.
on the walls of the coolant passages. These layers are notorious for reducing
the cooling capabilities of an engine's coolant system. Thus I can envision two
scenarios: 1) new engine, no buildup, good heat transfer, lower engine
temperature; and 2) old engine, lots of buildup, poor heat transfer, higher
engine temperature. But then a higher engine temperature means a more potential
heat transfer to the water which will increase the water temperature coming out
of the engine.

Now here's the kicker: If the thermostat is stuck wide open, then the flowrate
is likely at its maximum. Now think about this. Since the thermostat is spring
loaded, and given that the spring tension decreases as the temperature gets
warmer, this implies that there is more water flowrate with higher water
temperatures. The implication of this is that higher water flowrates are needed
at higher temperatures to get more cooling of the engine. This scenario does
explain the higher water temperature at higher flowrates.

Confused? So am I. I can keep going, but you get the point.

So to answer Andrew's question, it is quite possible that as the coolant flow
increases, the water temperature goes up. It really depends on the exact nature
of the situation that you are measuring the water temperature.

Steve Garling
1964 1/2 289 4V Convertible
4-core desert cooler radiator with transmission supplemental cooling
Still runs hot in the summer here in Pheonix, Arizona


Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top
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  #9  
Old 08-12-2004, 06:17 PM
Travlin Travlin is offline
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Default RE: Fore core radiators

I'll throw another lil kicker in here -- Some drag racers I used to know -- instead of using a washer in the gooseneck they'd use a stock thermostat and break it -- So that the diaphram sat at an angle -- Reducing water flow, but allowing it to flow continuously.

Seemed to work just fine. ::shrug::
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  #10  
Old 08-13-2004, 08:36 AM
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Default cooling fluid - impact on overheating

Since I am not at work (vacation) I can not look into the perry bible, however what I did not yet read about is the influence of the cooling fluid.

If a cooling fluid has a lower / larger "k" factor (k = heat transfer coefficient) then in the engine the fluid will not heat up as quickly - thus enter the radiator at lower temperature. In the radiador the fluid will cool down slower for 2 reasons (1) the temperature difference between fluid and air is less and (2) again the less optimal "k" factor.

Optimal (ofcourse not realistic) is a fluid that heats up and cools down in milliseconds. This could enter the engine at 60 dgr. heat up to 120 dgr. enter the radiator at 120 dgr., exit the radiator at 60 dgr. enter the engine at 60 dgr. and so on. In the engine the fluid heats up 60 dgr. and in the radiator it cools down 60 dgr.
Since the heat taken from the engine is (in this theoretical case) calculated as 60 dgr. x fluid flow, in this case a high water pump flow would give a risk of cooling the engine down to much (in theory down to 61 dgr.)

Very bad (also not realistic?) is a fluid that heats up and cools down very, very slow. This could enter the engine at 60 dgr. heat up to 80 dgr. enter the radiator at 80 dgr., exit the radiator at 60 dgr. enter the engine at 60 dgr. and so on. In the engine the fluid heats up 20 dgr. and in the radiator it cools down 20 dgr.
Since the heat taken from the engine is (in this theoretical case)calculated as 20 dgr. x fluid flow, in this case a high water pump flow is needed to remove the energie out of the engine. Heat transfer surface will then become the limiting factor.

Are you still with me?
Simplified you can compare it with touching a steel item with your hand, compared to touching a plastic item. The steel will very quickly transport the heat of your hand away, thus giving good cooling effect.

Did anyone make tests with "old" verus "new" or "water-based" versus "glycol-based" cooling fluid?


(all temperatures in Celsius)

Hans
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