Last squarebird??

[trim code 76]

Ok,
Hope I have not board to death everyone on this topic. I just got done talking to Alan Tast and unfortunately there is no way (at this time) to be able to say (by actual Ford documentation) that my car is the last one. There are many things that point that way, but no definative proof. The ROT sheet would help, but alas there is not one I can find on the car. He tends to agree with what Phil Skinner said about the numberical order of the cars going down the line (or lack there of) and that the lighter color cars were done last in the day. The door panel writting is not enough for rock solid proof. So there you go!!! It has been fun, informative and a little frustrating. I guess How I posted this topic is how the car needs to be labeled: "Last Squarebird?" Have a good one everyone and THANK YOU for all the info given. Now lets get out there and drive our birds!!! (wait, oops, mines still in the paint shop!)
Greg

[bird 60]

Hey Greg,

At this point & time your'e obviousley dissapointed not knowing 100% but remember, the Fat Lady hasn't sung yet & untill she does there is still a possibility.

Chris....From the Land of OZ.

[Hawkrod]

snip

Another interesting thing is that the California Registration form is dated 10/20/60! That is a week from time it came off the line to the day it was registered in California! Interesting again!

snip

I would only add that maybe you were not entirely clear on what I wrote and may want to consider that the car did not come off of the line when you assume it did. The date on the door tag has nothing to do with when a car is actually built, it is the day a car is scheduled to be built when the order was received. that order could easily be 30, 60, or even 90 days old (actually July 1968 428 SCJ Mustang orders were all held until October at the earliest!). Because they really have no idea how orders will come in and how various factors can affect batch building, it is very possible that cars can be built months ahead or behind schedule. Unfortunately with 1966 and older cars we can't do much to reasearch on this but with the records that Ford gave to Kevin Marti we can see the 1967 and newer builds very clearly and can see how the pogram actually worked. Below I have linked to an 1969 428 SCJ Mustang Marti report so you can see what I am talking about. On the right hand side it shows the order was received on 7/31/68 and at that time the serial number was assigned and it was scheduled to be assembled on 10/02/68. Unfortunately for that likely frustrated and angry dealer, the car was not actually built until 12/11/1968 and was then sold on 1/03/69! Unless you have a gate release for that Tbird you have no way to verify the actual build date. It is not impossible that a car built in Wixom could get to a California dealer, get sold and get registered in a week but it certainly is highly unlikely just due to the time it takes California DMV to process paperwork (back then it was all manual with paperwork being mailed to Sacramento and back to the owner! Even today it usually takes longer than a week to process DMV paperwork). Hawkrod

[Hawkrod]

One more note to help people understand, I see mentioned on the web site that the blue on the driveshaft is noted as an inspection mark. The blue stripe on the driveshaft is not an inspection mark, it is an ID paint stripe. Things like driveshafts and springs came in several different configurations such as different engines and transmissions requiring different length driveshafts or different options such as AC requiring heavier springs etc... to make it easier and less confusing on the assembly line, these common parts, that had several versions, were marked in such a way to ID them easily. If you look at a build sheet under springs or driveshaft it will have a color code that should correspond to the color of the part. That is how cars were built. You have to understand that assembly line workers were not trained craftsman, they were day laborers with a permanent job. They did not need rocket scientists, it was a menial task to build a car. The build sheet would note a blue stripe driveshaft so that was what the guy pulled and installed. That was the specific reason for a build sheet. Below is a build sheet I have linked to from a later Tbird built at Wixom. You will note that some parts will list numbers and some colors or letter codes. If it is a single color then that is what you will see, if it is letters then they represent a series of color marks. Numbers are abreviations of the numbers that will appear on the part. Using the sheet below, we see that the shocks are green so we would see either all green or more likely something like black with a green mark on the original shocks, BU GN on the driveshaft would translate to blue and green stripes (BA is black BR is brown etc... BL is too confusing because it could be black or blue), and finally the 8SEC for the fan would actually translate to a C8SE-8600-C engineering number. Hawkrod

[YellowRose]

Last Squarebird??

Thanks, Hawkrod, for providing us with additional information on how things were done at Wixom. It gives us further insight into how the production line was run, and what the line workers went through to build a car. It has all been interesting and fascinating reading. Thanks for the explanation of the ROT sheet also. I am sure we are all learning a lot from this thread! I know I am!

It was Kevin Marti, as I recall, that I talked with last year when I tried to gain more information regarding my '59 Tbird. That is when I found out that when he got the records of the Tbirds, he did not get those from 1966 back, for whatever reason. If we could only find out where those records went to... What a treasure trove that would be..

[Coral]

Hey Greg,

At this point & time your'e obviousley dissapointed not knowing 100% but remember, the Fat Lady hasn't sung yet & untill she does there is still a possibility.

Chris....From the Land of OZ.

Excellent point Chris....


No-where near fat, and can't hold a tune without a sturdy bucket, but I'm not quitting
This is the most fun I've had in about 6 months!

What about the gal that owned the car for so long? Surely she was given paperwork from the original owner/service records and all...not a huge stretch for her to have 'left' the papers tucked away somewhere...since it was closer to the time and all, the First owner might have said "hey this is the last bird" - just a thought

In reference to the ROT....I get the impression these papers are just poked into places - surely not...how would they last?
I would think stuffing it into a place it wouldn't get lost or thrown out by the new owner...under the upholstery, not just wadded in the springs...under the console, above the glove box under the dash kinda thing....or am I over thinking it?

[YellowRose]

Last Squarebird??

Hi Cathie,

I am glad you are enjoying yourself! I am not giving up on finding more information on Greg's car either! In fact, I know who has the line production records for the 1960 year and am working on that...

You just gave Greg an excellent idea. He knows the lady who owned the car before him. Perhaps he can contact her and find out if there were any paperwork, books, manuals, like the User Manual in the glove box that I had with mine. Maybe she has it with the ROT sheet inside it! Wouldn't that be something? Or with some other records that she forget to pass on to Greg.

Regarding the ROT sheet. It was often in their hands when they were working inside the car because they were using it to finish off the car. As you can see by the one Hawkrod posted, it told them how to build the car. Rather than get out of the car to throw it away, since it was no longer needed once they had the car all finished out, they often just slipped it in the seat springs, under the carpet, in the dash, or other places, where ever they were working when they did not need it any longer. It was printed on thin, cheap paper and was not meant to last. Once they had the car built they did not need it any longer.
Thank you, Cathie....

[Hawkrod]

Excellent point Chris....


No-where near fat, and can't hold a tune without a sturdy bucket, but I'm not quitting
This is the most fun I've had in about 6 months!

What about the gal that owned the car for so long? Surely she was given paperwork from the original owner/service records and all...not a huge stretch for her to have 'left' the papers tucked away somewhere...since it was closer to the time and all, the First owner might have said "hey this is the last bird" - just a thought

In reference to the ROT....I get the impression these papers are just poked into places - surely not...how would they last?
I would think stuffing it into a place it wouldn't get lost or thrown out by the new owner...under the upholstery, not just wadded in the springs...under the console, above the glove box under the dash kinda thing....or am I over thinking it?

You are definitely over thinking it. The build sheets were literally garbage. They served no purpose after a car was built. They were left in the car only because it was cheaper and easier than paying to have trash hauled away. They were never meant to last or even ever be seen again after a car was built. Hawkrod

[bird 60]

Hey all,
Here's another thought. Some of the guys on the assembly line back in '60 would have been in their late Teens or early twenties. That would make them in their late sixties & early seventies. I'm sure if some how one could get in touch with some-one & get some info. The township of Wixom would be a good place to start. If they have a local paper we can do a bit of a write-up relating to the matter & see if someone puts their hand up.
We're all getting in the picture for you Greg & I still haven't heard the Fat Lady Sing.

Chris....From the Land of OZ.

[trim code 76]

Hawkrod,
Thanks for the explaination on the driveshaft. Learn something new every day. A couple of things. I am sorry but do not understand about the one week from build to being sold at the dealership?? The built date stamp and writting from the line worker stated 9/13. The car was sold on 10/20. That would be a little more than a month unless I am missng something. I understand what Hawkrod is stating with regards to car vin number and the date a car was actually built.....but I guess I do not understand how the car was built on another date if the inscription on the door panel is for 9/13?? Just wondering. Thanks for the info Hawkrod I see that is what happened on the car you showed on the attached clip. My understanding is that it does seam to be accurate that the dark cars were painted first light colored last. White would be the lightest, then the Platnium (Silver). What I was advised of was that the very last cars were made of leftover parts unless specially ordered. The white 1960 paint I believe was carried over to 1961. The silver color was changed. So the left over silver paint would be shot on the remaining last cars as to use up the supply and being the lightest color not carried over??? Maybe I am getting caught up in this but I do believe the car was made on 9/13 due to the writting on the door panel and the 13W date code. Who knows for sure BUT, THIS JUST OCCURED TO ME!!! I can understand a car being given a vin number earlier in the production line and having it be delayed until later in the year. but I do not understand how a very, very late number car with a build date code stating last day of production can be built earlier. I scratch my head on that one. If someone can make sense out of that one please fill me in!!

[bird 60]

Something else I forgot to mention which is the most important issue of the lot is to question the Shamrock & Last Day Last Car. That in it's own would mean a lot if the build sheets don't mean anything.

Chris

[trim code 76]

Chris,
Thank you!!!!!!! Kind of fun! Who has the last 59??, first?? How about the first squarebird (58)????????? This could get totally out of control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Greg

[bird 60]

Greg, don't lose the picture you have a genuine reason to persue the matter, & on a personal note it is a big deal. I would get in touch with Wixom & try & dig something up.
It is very intriguing for a lot of us. You have caught the Fish & now it's a matter of bringing it up. (FAITH)

Chris

[Hawkrod]

Hawkrod,
Thanks for the explaination on the driveshaft. Learn something new every day. A couple of things. I am sorry but do not understand about the one week from build to being sold at the dealership?? The built date stamp and writting from the line worker stated 9/13. The car was sold on 10/20. That would be a little more than a month unless I am missng something. I understand what Hawkrod is stating with regards to car vin number and the date a car was actually built.....but I guess I do not understand how the car was built on another date if the inscription on the door panel is for 9/13?? Just wondering. Thanks for the info Hawkrod I see that is what happened on the car you showed on the attached clip. My understanding is that it does seam to be accurate that the dark cars were painted first light colored last. White would be the lightest, then the Platnium (Silver). What I was advised of was that the very last cars were made of leftover parts unless specially ordered. The white 1960 paint I believe was carried over to 1961. The silver color was changed. So the left over silver paint would be shot on the remaining last cars as to use up the supply and being the lightest color not carried over??? Maybe I am getting caught up in this but I do believe the car was made on 9/13 due to the writting on the door panel and the 13W date code. Who knows for sure BUT, THIS JUST OCCURED TO ME!!! I can understand a car being given a vin number earlier in the production line and having it be delayed until later in the year. but I do not understand how a very, very late number car with a build date code stating last day of production can be built earlier. I scratch my head on that one. If someone can make sense out of that one please fill me in!!

Doh, that is a case of not comprehending what I was reading. He said it was a week from 9/13 to 10/20 and I did not even do the math. That is 5 weeks and that is a very, VERY, reasonable time frame. It probably is just as well that I did not catch his mistake because it would not have occured to me to post the other info otherwise. Unfortunately, sometimes we assume that others have a clear and concise understanding of the things we already know. We forget that other people have not been doing this for as long or have as much experience is certain areas. Just because I know something does not mean you do but too many times my mind just thinks "heck, everybody knows that" and I skip what could be important detailed information that could help somebody else. Just a "for example, in the last week I was trying to find the part number for the filler parts for the tail light panel on a 1968 California Special or Shelby Mustang. I looked it up in the books, googled it etc... to no avail. I finally got serious and dug out the old parts books and found it. The part that caught me was the fact that the California Special web site has a page listing all of the specific special parts that were used to build the cars but these four parts were omitted. If I had not shared the info the guys that specialize in these would still not have the numbers and yet they are the very ones I should have been able to go to. Sharing info is what helps us draw a more detailed picture of how these cars were built and how Ford worked back then.

Now having said that, there is another important point that needs to be understood. The reality is there are no "leftover" parts on an assembly line. There is a small number of parts but not the quantity that most people think of. Read this: http://mysite.verizon.net/tcherry3/f.../editorial.htm. It really is important to understand that parts were ordered nearly daily and that an assembly plant was not a storage warehouse so they usually only have enough parts to build the cars that were scheduled and some percentage of spares to cover damage or failures. The paint issue is moot as any leftover paint is dumped into the vats of slop grey and while the colors you note changed for those models, they may have still been regular colors for other models. Ford only had so many color choices but not every color was used on every line. Basically, the way it usually works is there are a few balance out cars, maybe a couple of dozen at most but usually just a handful that are built with whatever spare parts are left. These cars are often built after the new models are already rolling (they were started as soon as the last scheduled car is started). These are the only cars that are built from scraps and leftovers. The other end of the run cars were scheduled so all of the parts to build them were specifically ordered to do it so there was no need to make them a certain color (which is another issue, color comes early in the assembly process, when the cars get to the end of the line they are often mixed in color).

As far as how a late number with a late schedule can be built earlier, that is easy. The car is ordered. It is an odd color and so is scheduled for batch building later based on the expectation of additional orders coming in between now and the scheduled build date. Now, there is a batch of other cars being built and something happens to delay the assembly (say there is a delivery problem with salmon colored dash pads) so the batch that was supposed to started tomorrow can't be built because the pads won't be in until thursday. Do I stop the line? No, I go to what can be built because the parts are already available. This was quite common because Ford used a "Just In Time" system for parts and any delay stopped the line and "we never stop the line!". Another thing that can move cars ahead is line speed. The line assembly time is pretty much a known quantity. It takes into account new workers being trained, skill level of line workers etc... but what if for some reason you get a group of people who are all very good at what they do and stick together? The line speed is supposed to be 180 cars an hour but what if they kick out 220? The parts guys hate it because they have to move up deliveries but in five days you have picked a full days production. This also happens often enough. Hawkrod

[YellowRose]

Last squarebird??

My apologies in making that math mistake! I must have had a "Senior Moment" aka Brain pfffttt! The good thing about that math error is that it caused Hawkrod to post the other interesting information that he had and shared with us! But I do not like to make mistakes. Yup, that would have been easy for that car to have been on that Hollywood car dealers lot 5 weeks after 9/13!

Back to work for you. I am still hot on the trail of the paperwork for Greg's car. Someone told me that I am like a bulldog when I go on the hunt for information. I do not give up!