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Conny's ~ raggarn61 '58 430 Convertible!

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  • YellowRose
    Super-Experienced


    • Jan 21 2008
    • 17188

    Conny's ~ raggarn61 '58 430 Convertible!

    You should find this very interesting! Conny is a brand new member to the Forum, and it surprised me when he said that he was the owner of a '58 Tbird Convertible with a 430MEL engine! So I assumed that someone had put a 430MEL engine in it after it left the production line. Now I know that there are no records of a '58 Tbird ever coming off the Wixom production line with a 430MEL engine in it. They were planning on having one, because there is a '58 advertising brochure they put out that listed the 430MEL as an optional engine for the '58 Tbird. However, that never came about for what ever reasons. So this got me involved in a conversation with him and with John Rotella of the Tbird Registry.

    It turns out that John knows about this '58 prototype '58 Tbird 430 Convertible! He has it registered in his Registry, but had lost contact with it until Conny reported that he now owned it. There were TWO '58 Tbirds reported to have had 430MEL engines installed in them. John told Conny about the article in William Wonder's Thunderbird Restoration Guide 1958-1966. On Page 27 it states that back in 1958 Motor Trend magazine test drove a prototype '58 Hardtop with the 430MEL engine in it. The article states that no examples like this were thought to be sold to the general public. No mention was made as to what happened to that car. The 430MEL engine option did not appear on the Tbird production line until the 1959 model year. However, they were being put into the Lincolns which also were produced on the Wixom line.

    The next statement in that article is the grabber! "However, one convertible, VIN #H8YJ129793, (My addition - Build date of 08H- 8 August - Data Plate 76A - E - XG - 08H - 4 - axle 1) is reported to have been equipped with the 430. This engineering prototype had the engine installed in the car AFTER (emphasis mine) leaving the assembly line." The VIN # on Conny's car has that VIN # on the Data Plate and the car is Corinthian White with the Red & White interior! To me, that plate looks to be the OEM plate. Here is what I know about that car. Conny found it in California, where, if I understand this, it sat for about 30 years. He bought it in February this year and had it shipped to Sweden. He had the engine restored in the States, and then shipped to him, along with new bumpers and other new parts for the restoration process. The engine is in the container with these new parts.

    John Rotella has this Tbird in his Tbird Registry, as # 1393.
    http://www.tbirdregistry.com/viewdat...tryNumber=1393
    It was entered into the registry over 10 years ago.

    Dave Dare~simplyconnected, tells me that, apparently the Engineering Division needed a '58 Tbird to use to make the necessary changes to so that the engine bay would accept the 430MEL engine. So they took a completed '58 (with the 352 engine of course and the H8 coded Data Plate) from the production line, took it to their Engineering facility and made the necessary changes to it required for the 430MEL engine install that they were planning for the 1958, 1959, 1960 Squarebirds. After making the changes, they did not change the Data Plate, but left it with the original one. What we do not know is if, while they had it, they swapped the PBU-L 352 tranny for the PBB-M 430MEL tranny and the 3.10:1 352 axle for the 2.91:1 430MEL axle. These are things that Conny is going to check when he gets a chance to get it up on a lift and look for the tranny and axle tags. Also start checking codes on the block, headers, intakes, etc.. Right now, it has no engine in the car. I do not know if the tranny is in it still. Dave suggests that they just might have left the production line tranny and axle as they were when the car came off the line. What happened to this car after Engineering had completed their work on it we do not know. Dave says it was probably driven and tested for awhile, making sure everything was working correctly before they went into full production on this combination for the '59 Tbird. After that, it might have been sold to a dealer or a private individual. We do know that somewhere along the way, it ended up in California and has sat there amongst several Bulletbirds for at least the last 30 years.

    I have asked Conny if he can provide us with any other information regarding past owners, the company he bought it from, etc.. It does appear, according to Bill Van Ess, and John Rotella, that Conny does own that prototype Tbird. There does not seem to have been any hanky panky with that Data Plate. I will post some pix of it. Conny, hopefully, will be posting up in the Squarebirds Forum, as he needs help in restoring it. Here are the pix and I will probably have to do more than one post. In the very first picture, look down the left side of the Tbird and you will see the noses of 3 Bulletbirds sticking out! It was much easier to see in the big picture he sent me, but you can still see them here.
    Attached Files

    Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
    The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
    Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

    https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
    Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
    https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html
  • YellowRose
    Super-Experienced


    • Jan 21 2008
    • 17188

    #2
    More Pix

    Here are the additional pix. I have no pix of the engine.
    Attached Files

    Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
    The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
    Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

    https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
    Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
    https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

    Comment

    • YellowRose
      Super-Experienced


      • Jan 21 2008
      • 17188

      #3
      Restoring raggarn61 ~ Conny's '58 Tbird

      I just posted a lot of information and pix of the '58 430MEL Tbird Convertible of Conny, in Sweden, in the Our Rides Forum. Conny is working on gathering parts to restore this rare Tbird. One of the things I am wondering about regarding this Tbird that was used as the prototype to engineer the engine bay for the 430MEL engines to be put in the '59/'60 Tbirds, is if they also changed out the 352 PBL-U tranny to the PBB-M 430 tranny, and the 352 3.10:1 axle to the 430 2.91:1 axle. The Data Plate does not indicate that, just what it had in it when Engineering took it from production after it came off the line.

      I have suggested to Conny that if he wants to find that out that he inspect, when he can, the tranny to determine if it has the tranny tag on it still and if so, which one. That will tell him if they swapped out the tranny for the 430 PBB-M, or left the 352 tranny on the car. Same for the pumpkin. If the tags are in place. The tranny tag is located on the left (drivers side) of the case as shown in the picture attached. It should say something like PBB-7003-M or something like that for the 430 COM. If it says PBL-U or something similar to that, it is a 352 COM.

      The other thing he should check is the date codes on the 430MEL block just to be sure that it is the engine that was on the car when it left the plant. That code should have a date sometime prior to 8 August, 1958, the date it was scheduled for production. If it has a date later than that, then that would seem to indicate that someone put that 430MEL engine in the car AFTER it came off the line. Especially if the date codes are some months or some years later than the Schedule or Build date. However, according to the Thunderbird Restoration Guide, 1958-1966 Page #27, the VIN # listed there as having the 430MEL engine installed in it, IS the same VIN # on Conny's Tbird. If you want to double check that VIN #, you can also find it engraved in the engine bay frame. I including that also. With the engine out of the bay, you should be able to find the location of the stamped VIN # on the frame. It should be identical to what is on the Data Plate. If it is, that confirms what the Data Plate says and the book says about your Tbird. If it is not... Then someone has been playing games with that Tbird before you got it...

      To help Conny locate these codes, I will post some pix for him to go by. The code for the 430 engine block is located on the left hand side of the engine (drivers side) in front of the left hand cylinder head. Conny the picture will show the assembly date codes breakdown. The first figure is the Plant which built the engine. The second figure is the Year code and on your engine it should read a 7 or an 8, indicating the engine was built in 1957 or 1958. If it says a 9 or a 0, I would think that would indicate that engine was installed in that car some time AFTER it left Wixom. The third figure is the Month, and it should read as a 1 through 8. After that, would indicate that it was made after August. The fourth number would give you the actual day it was built.

      If the tag is still on the rear axle pumpkin, if it is a 352 gear set up it should say 3.10:1. If it was changed for a 430 engine, it should say 2.91.1.

      Here are the pix that I found for you Conny to go by when you get a chance to check the codes.
      Attached Files

      Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
      The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
      Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

      https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
      Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
      https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

      Comment

      • Anders
        Super-Experienced
        • Jan 19 2008
        • 2213

        #4
        If you ( Conny ) contact me, ( see New Menbers Welcoming ) I can guide you to one Birdfriend who ownes, and knows A LOT about the 430 Engine here in Sweden.
        sigpic..."Lil darling Ruth":)
        http://www.tbirdregistry.com/#33158

        Comment

        • tbird430
          Super-Experienced
          • Jun 18 2007
          • 2648

          #5
          Welcome to the site Conny!!

          This sounds like it will be an interesting thread to follow. I'll get my popcorn ready...


          -Jon in TX.
          sigpic
          The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

          VTCI Member#6287.

          Comment

          • YellowRose
            Super-Experienced


            • Jan 21 2008
            • 17188

            #6
            Restoring raggarn61 ~ Conny's '58 Tbird

            Conny has replied to me and I will paraphrase what he had to say here. I have suggested that when he can, he check the 430MEL engine and tranny codes to see when the engine was built and which tranny he has. Also that he check the VIN # on the engine bay frame to make sure it is the same as the one on the data plate. Here is what he said about how he found this Tbird.

            "I was transferred to San Francisco in February this year and went around to look for a ford convertible. When I was 16, I bought the first Mustang -66ht then. When we came to this place, I knew my friend had some Fords, but not so many at first. I was interested in a black T-bird -59 Convertible with 430 but after that walked around and looked, I asked what was under the plastic further on. He said that it was a T-bird -58 convertible but half worn condition, I looked through the car and saw that there was no rust but most dirty and it seems that it had been a long time over 30 years, he explained. I went back to Sweden and checked how many there were 58 convertible and I got a message that there are probably just over 100 left. I decided to buy the car, took the first plane back and bought the car . I decided to buy up most of the car parts that I needed and take the opportunity to refurbish the engine in the USA, it is cheaper than in Sweden. Now when the car is at home in my garage in Sweden so I thought it would be funny to register the car in a T-birds page just to see how many -58 convertibles there are around the world. Then I was told that this car has a special story, I think this is fun for me, it's like buying a lottery ticket and won. I've always wanted a T-bird -58 -59-60 convertible and now I have one and I am going to renovate in a good condition and go to one of the world's biggest car exhibition Power Meet located in Västerås 30 miles from me. (Comment by Ray. Anders has told me this summer event in Vasteras draws some 10,000 cars!) I will inform and send cards to you every since I renovate the T-Bird. I do not know if there is something special more value in this car than any other T-bird -58 convertible but if there's any clue it would be interesting and know where the pricing is. I've talked to the man I bought the car and he's a bit concerned about anyone knowing his location or wants me talk about his T-birds he has. But I can reveal that he has around 15-20 cars, 5-6 -58 to - 60 and 10-15 -61 to -65. I will tell you that day he thinks it's ok to visit him. Have a good one Ray. I'm glad you guys are so helpful to me. Once again, Thanks, Conny."

            Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
            The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
            Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

            https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
            Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
            https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

            Comment

            • Joe Johnston
              Super-Experienced
              • Dec 23 2008
              • 720

              #7
              [QUOTEit's like buying a lottery ticket and won][/QUOTE]

              I think we all have to agree!!!!

              Its always good to hear a special vehicle like this has a new owner that will preserve it!

              Comment

              • Anders
                Super-Experienced
                • Jan 19 2008
                • 2213

                #8
                Conny called me this morning, and I will help him as mucha s possible with how I fixed my rear axle travel, and also with contacts with other Birders here. He seems to go all in, as he have ordered A LOT of parts already and as Ray mentioned, send bumpers to chrome in US as well as haveing th engine restored. There is plenty of money to be saved that way. Have in mind gentlemen, that everything is half or a third price in USA compair to here. Clever move. He also said he know someone in US who have the original white cellulosa paint, so it will be very exciting to see this babe in her former glory later on.
                sigpic..."Lil darling Ruth":)
                http://www.tbirdregistry.com/#33158

                Comment

                • YellowRose
                  Super-Experienced


                  • Jan 21 2008
                  • 17188

                  #9
                  Restoring raggarn61 ~ Conny's '58 Tbird

                  I just got an email from Conny and a number of pictures of his VIN # on the engine bay frame. It DOES match the VIN # on the Data Plate. So as far as I am concerned, he has the real deal, THE prototype '58 Tbird with the 430MEL engine in it that was used to engineer the '59/'60 engine bays for the 430MEL engine! I will post a picture of the VIN #, but first here is what Conny had to say. I cleaned up his text a bit.

                  "Hello Ray I've been down to the garage and looking for "the" Vin # in the frame until it was over on the left frame legs, I had no idea it "was" without you told it. But it looks like it has stamped the whole number 2 times. I have a question about the last card in the odd-numbered patch that sat in the driver's seat what is the number? Now you look carefully at the photographs and hope it's the right number on the frame the same as the Vin plate. Have phoned Anders in Gothenburg and we'll call each other this weekend and talk further. Have a good one Ray. Talk to you again Conny S"

                  I asked Dave about that frame member being stamped on it twice. He said they did not stamp them but actually engraved them into the frames. I gather the first engraving was light, as you can see by the bottom one, so they must have engraved it in again to be sure it could be seen. I should have suggested that Conny clean off that area really good before he took pix of it, but you can see that it does match the Data Plate VIN #.

                  The question he asked me about that BAP tag, is an interior tag of some type that is probably a vendor tag. I found one like that with a BAP number like that, hog ringed to the back rest of the back seat when we were putting in the new interior in my '59 Tbird.

                  Sooo, it looks like we can put to rest any doubt about this being the real deal. The engine bay VIN # confirms it. I am glad to hear that Anders and Conny have been talking and will some more. Anders can be a great help to Conny in advising him on restoring this Tbird and getting it back on the road! Thanks, Anders.

                  Here is one of the VIN # pix. You can see the lighter bottom number much better on the big pics that Conny sent me. I had to downsize it to get it on the Forum. I decided to crop a big pic and just get a close up of the VIN # so you can see it better.
                  Attached Files

                  Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
                  The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
                  Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

                  https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
                  Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
                  https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

                  Comment

                  • YellowRose
                    Super-Experienced


                    • Jan 21 2008
                    • 17188

                    #10
                    The 1958 Squarebird Marketing Brochure W/430MEL Engine

                    One of the things that I found interesting regarding the Motor Trend report in William Wonder's Thunderbird Restoration Guide, 1958-1966 is that no 1958 Tbirds ever went into production with the 430MEL engine in them. I have been aware for some time that Ford was planning on marketing the 1958 Tbird with the 430MEL engine, as borne out by their 1958 Marketing Brochure put out in March, 1958! In that brochure, they list the 430MEL engine and tout it as an optional engine for the 1958 Tbird. However, as we all know, for whatever reasons that we will probably never learn, they did not get it done. It was not until August, 1958 at the end of that production run when Engineering picked up that 352 equipped '58 Tbird Convertible from the Production line and started the process of fitting the 430MEL engine into the Squarebird engine bay. It was not until sometime in the 1959 Squarebird production run that the 430MEL was offered in limited numbers. I do not know that date.

                    Here is what I really find puzzling. This just dawned on me, after re-reading the Wonder article. Some time before August, 1958 someone had figured out how to install a 430MEL engine in a '58 Hardtop! This would have been sometime before April, 1958 because of the following report. According to the Wonder book, Motor Trend magazine reported in their April 1958 edition that they road tested a 1958 Hardtop Tbird with the 430MEL engine in it! If Engineering already knew what modifications to make to the engine bay to put that 430MEL engine into that Hardtop they provided Motor Trends to test, why did they need a convertible as a prototype to modify? Another question I have is did they test that Tbird with the 352 or the 430MEL tranny and axle gears? Does anyone have that copy? If so, can you check to see if they provided the VIN # for that Tbird, as was reported for Conny's Tbird? Does it state which tranny and axle gears they had on the car? Somewhere that Tbird might still be out there, as Conny's was, or it might have been crushed. It would be good to know and if we could locate that Tbird that would really be special.

                    Here is a link to a copy of that marketing brochure which John Rotella of the Love Fords Forum and the Tbird Registry (and a member of this Forum) emailed me a copy of the brochure to share with ya'll. It is in .pdf format. You can right click on it to save it and print it out if you want to.

                    http://www.squarebirds.org/SB/1958Tb...258-engine.pdf
                    Last edited by YellowRose; December 20, 2012, 01:17 AM.

                    Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
                    The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
                    Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

                    https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
                    Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
                    https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

                    Comment

                    • jopizz
                      Super-Experienced


                      • Nov 23 2009
                      • 8308

                      #11
                      I have a copy of the May 1958 Motor Trend article where it was named Car of the Year. It was reprinted in the Sept-Oct 1987 Thunderbird Scoop. In that article they make mention of the 430 as being rumored so I doubt that they had tested one previously although they do list acceleration figures for it saying that it's similar to a 1958 Lincoln. The picture of the engine in the article is a 352.

                      John
                      John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

                      Thunderbird Registry #36223
                      jopizz@squarebirds.org 856-779-9695

                      https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

                      Comment

                      • YellowRose
                        Super-Experienced


                        • Jan 21 2008
                        • 17188

                        #12
                        The 1958 Squarebird Marketing Brochure W/430MEL Engine

                        Hi John, according to Wonder's book, Motor Trend tested a 1958 Tbird Hardtop with the 430MEL engine in it and reported the results of the test in the April 1958 edition. So someone in Engineering had to have done the work to configure the '58 Squarebird engine bay to install that engine in it so they could provide it to MT for testing.. That would have had to been sometime in the early production run in 1957 or shortly after the new year in 1958 to have the car ready for testing sometime before the month of April when the magazine came out. As I was just discussing with John Rotella, if they had already figured out what had to be done to the engine bay to accept the 430, prior to April, 1958 why did they take a convertible in August, 1958 and do the same thing to it?? Puzzling, but I am glad they did because it still lives! Now in Conny's hands!
                        Last edited by YellowRose; December 20, 2012, 02:06 AM.

                        Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
                        The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
                        Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

                        https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
                        Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
                        https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

                        Comment

                        • jopizz
                          Super-Experienced


                          • Nov 23 2009
                          • 8308

                          #13
                          I did see the note in William Wonder's book. I just find it odd that there was no mention in the May 1958 Motor Trend article that they had tested a '58 with the 430 in the April issue. It seems like the writer would have mentioned it instead of just saying that he had heard that it might be available. I guess until someone comes up with the April article we'll have to keep guessing.

                          John
                          John Pizzi - Squarebirds Administrator

                          Thunderbird Registry #36223
                          jopizz@squarebirds.org 856-779-9695

                          https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm

                          Comment

                          • simplyconnected
                            Administrator
                            • May 26 2009
                            • 8778

                            #14
                            Gentlemen, when a new product is developed they never do ONE CAR. They do many of each. Never just one.

                            Understand that it isn't just the motor mounts that are different, so are the exhaust manifolds, "H" pipes, throttle and trans linkage and many details. By the time this change hit the assembly plant, ALL the parts had been tried, approved, and the line was well-stocked with 'launch' parts (that's how they are labeled).

                            Engineering approves the product drawings with full details, then the tooling goes out for quote. All this takes many months of careful planning, purchase of materials, and then they test new part consistancy in a 'pilot production run'. Checking fixtures are made as a 'standard' for Quality Control. Upon QC's approval, production starts. Never before. The Stamping Division (in this case, Budd) works with Ford Foundry Div., Engine Engineering, Transmission and Chassis, and Assembly Division in a joint effort for the ultimate launch in Wixom. The 'trial run' was done in Ford's Pilot Plant. If something was wrong, responsibility went back to the proper division and no downtime was suffered in Wixom.

                            Ford didn't make the unique "H" pipe. A vendor like Arvin did. So, that's another part that needed to be engineered, tooled, built, purchased and tested. Then, 'Service Parts' MUST be available at the same time production starts, for dealerships.

                            I think it's a wonderful thing that you guys found a Squarebird that was pulled off the line and fit with a 430, but this has been played out many hundreds of times. I remember when the 460 was introduced to the Thunderbird. The car wasn't new and the engine wasn't new, but the application was. The 460 was also in Lincolns, Econoline Club Wagons and F-series Pickup trucks. All of those bodys were well established before this new BBF engine came around.

                            What I don't understand is, why were Squarebirds a candidate for a MEL engine??? Thunderbird isn't a Mercury, Edsel OR Lincoln.

                            BTW, sometimes the Marketing guys get wrong info. - Dave
                            Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                            --Lee Iacocca

                            From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                            Comment

                            • wackid
                              Newbie
                              • Dec 1 2012
                              • 13

                              #15
                              The MEL option motor was mentioned in the 1958 marketing brochure.
                              Maybe the did plan it for '58 but could not get it done because of vendors which could not deliver on time.

                              Off course when you get the change to give a road rest of a well known auto magazine you give the best ride with them. A convertible with a big engine. ( we have a proto type ready) Good reading stuff for the readers. Maybe we have a "car of the year" title. The readers want one.But sorry that option is not available yet. You'll have to wait next year.

                              Ford could not afford to admit to say they made a mistake. Brochures printed. Marketing material was sent etc.

                              Comes in mind. OR could it be a matter of a safety issue because of the rear individual springs? To heavy and power handeling?
                              Last edited by wackid; December 20, 2012, 05:37 AM.

                              Comment

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