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Oil pan gasket on a 352

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  • davidmij
    Super-Experienced
    • Jan 17 2011
    • 660

    Oil pan gasket on a 352

    Hey T-bird friends. I'm replacing a leaky oil pan gasket on my 59, 352 automatic. I got the oil pan unbolted and loose. Do I have to raise the motor to pull the pan all the way out? I want to get at the oil pump and clean the screen too. (No such thing as a stupid question, just stupid people) That would be me. ;0)
  • simplyconnected
    Administrator
    • May 26 2009
    • 8779

    #2
    David, you can't believe how many ask this question. Follow this thread:
    This forum is for the discussion of Ford FE engines as they pertain to Thunderbird and Ford Cars. They include 352, 390, and 428 cubic inch engines.


    Read it through because it cautions about common disasters. JohnG has a great point about rotating the crank to the correct position to make room for the pan. Hope this helps. - Dave
    Member, Sons of the American Revolution

    CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

    "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
    --Lee Iacocca

    From: Royal Oak, Michigan

    Comment

    • davidmij
      Super-Experienced
      • Jan 17 2011
      • 660

      #3
      Thx Dave, according to the manual I'll need to unbolt the engine mounts and raise it about a 2x4. Disconnect the radiator top hose - turn the crank out of the way, and then I should have enough room to unbolt the oil pump. It says I'll also need a gasket for the oil pump, I'll call my store to order that now. The pan gasket I ordered is part rubber ($9.99). Do I need to use a gasket sealer like form-a-gasket with this? Is there anything I should look for while I have it open - you know, stuff that might give me some indication of any engine trouble, or problems? The engine has blow by, I think it's from the passenger side cylinder closest to the fire wall because that spark plug was very black and oily.
      When I was a kid I replaced a broke engine mount on a V8 once, other than that this is all new ground to me so I just want to make sure I don't miss anything.
      Also, can you tell me why the thread says "moved"?
      thx again, David.

      Comment

      • simplyconnected
        Administrator
        • May 26 2009
        • 8779

        #4
        David, I moved the thread so others could easily find it. Your question is really about your engine. Many other model cars share your engine.

        If I didn't add this before, I always put the car on jack stands first to give enough room underneath to work and to get it off the wheels.

        When you raise the engine, since the car is not on any suspension, just the engine should move.

        Again, read the other thread because it comes from the experiences of many mechanics, not just one guy who wrote a manual.

        Wrenching on engines is not for the faint-hearted. Cleaning parts is no fun, either. But once you're done, a great sense of accomplishment and pride will really make you smile. So will the money you save by doing this work, yourself.

        Spread a thin coat of RTV on your gasket and let it 'skin' before assembly. It's only there to fill small gaps. Do the same on all mating surfaces but be very sure the old gasket material is scraped off and the surface is oil-free before spreading the RTV. Too much RTV will squish out, go into your engine and clog up your oil system. 'Just enough' RTV will seal nicely and it will probably save your gasket if you dis-assemble in the future.

        I have used Permatex #2 (non-hardening), Indian Head (shellac), and a host of others, all successfully. Then RTV came on the market and Ford started using it on oil pans (without gaskets) at the engine plants.

        I always ask myself, 'What do the OEM's use?', every time I work on cars. If you stick close to that, you're on the right track. Hope this helps. Take your time doing this job. If you get frustrated, STOP! Go back later when you're in a better mood and not so tired. Things will start 'going your way'. - Dave Dare

        EDIT: The day before you start, take your car to a quarter car wash and clean the engine bay underneath real well. Dirt and crud tend to hide bolt heads and get into everything.
        Last edited by simplyconnected; April 1, 2011, 01:20 PM.
        Member, Sons of the American Revolution

        CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

        "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
        --Lee Iacocca

        From: Royal Oak, Michigan

        Comment

        • davidmij
          Super-Experienced
          • Jan 17 2011
          • 660

          #5
          Thx Dave!
          I wish I could have degreased the bottom first, but the brakes weren't really road worthy. I have the car on 4 blocks and the brakes disconnected for when I get ready to do them. I took the pan off last night, not too much trouble. A tap with a rubber mallet and it came loose pretty easy. I'll get my gaskets tomorrow so I'm just taking my time. The manual said I need to replace the gasket for the oil pump too so I called and added it to my order. I don't plan on having the car running any time soon so I just work on it here and there when I get a little time. I'll most likely raise the engine up tomorrow and go from there. It's nice to work on cars when it's "at your leisure" - I really enjoy it and agree that it's a very satisfying when your done and it's right. I'll get some "RTV" when I pickup the gaskets.
          Really nice weather today and tomorrow, might have to go golf and leave the car rill next weekend!
          Cheers!

          Comment

          • simplyconnected
            Administrator
            • May 26 2009
            • 8779

            #6
            If this job is 'at your leisure', I would like you to hold off buying the pump gasket. Here's why:

            I would like you to take the bottom plate off the pump and look closely at the rotors. These are supposed to be precision parts, hardened and ground.

            Trouble comes when oil is sucked up to the pump before the filter, (which is how all engines work). Sometimes little pieces of metal get embedded in the pump rotors.

            You can buy just the internal pump parts. They come as a 7-piece kit with a gasket. Check out MAC's <--click here
            Search for COAE-6600-8KT for $24.
            BTW, do NOT put any gasket sealer on the pump gasket.
            Member, Sons of the American Revolution

            CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

            "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
            --Lee Iacocca

            From: Royal Oak, Michigan

            Comment

            • tbird430
              Super-Experienced
              • Jun 18 2007
              • 2648

              #7
              Make sure your back tires are blocked good to keep that Bird in place. Also, before raising the motor, have your hood open (and make sure it clears everything in your garage/shop). I would also watch the space between the upper transmission bellhousing bolt and the plastic A/C case on the firewall- if your Bird has A/C.

              Good luck.
              sigpic
              The 1960 Ford Thunderbird. The WORLD'S most wanted car....

              VTCI Member#6287.

              Comment

              • davidmij
                Super-Experienced
                • Jan 17 2011
                • 660

                #8
                Thx gents, I'm guessing that the 7 piece kit is the same for several engines, at least that's what it looks like. It says "sorry, discontinued item" when I search by my car, but the part number you supplied gives me the kit for a 428. The discontinued one would have been OK for a 352, 390, or a 428. Eventually I want to rebuild the motor so I'll check out the pump and decide if I want to rebuild it now or not. I saw another thread (johnG's) with pix of a clogged screen and a cleaned one - that's kind of why I thought I would check it out. http://www.squarebirds.org/users/johng/OCC.htm
                As for blocking the car; I have it on 4 jack stands with all the wheels off in my driveway. It's level and solid. I even put some un-split firewood rounds under the end I'm working on. A friend at work had a neighbor that had a car fall on him years ago in his driveway. By the time anyone noticed he was a goner. I've always been paranoid (which is good) about crawling under a car, or even a child going under after a ball or something. Better safe than sorry cuz' "stuff does happen".
                No AC, not much to get in the way, but I will keep a close eye on it as I jack it up slooooowly. Then I'll put a couple of short chucks of 2x4 in between the mounts and engine and let it rest on those.
                thx again, Dave

                Comment

                • Astrowing
                  Experienced
                  • Jul 22 2009
                  • 478

                  #9
                  I put a new oil pump in mine and cleaned the screen and I saw a big improvement in oil pressure. I also put in a new pump drive shaft while I was down there.
                  sigpic

                  CLICK HERE for Jim's web site

                  Comment

                  • davidmij
                    Super-Experienced
                    • Jan 17 2011
                    • 660

                    #10
                    I had about 3/16" of gray sludge in the bottom of the pan, not sure what that means. Everything was quite dirty, I cleaned my pump really well. When I turn the pump drive shaft it pumps great now. I completely cleaned the screen and pumped gas, then turpentine through it. It's running clear now. I'm sure that will help a lot with my oil pressure too. Had to scrape away all the oil and dirty to even see the brake line that runs across the support beam. TONS of mess. I'm guessing it's gonna be rough getting that drive shaft to stay in place when I re-assemble. After everything dried I was putting the pump in the oil pan to stash in my garage until I'm ready to install it and a bunch of grit or sand came out. Must have been stuck in the sludge in the screen. Turned the engine a bit and the cylinders look OK. (As if I'd know what they're supposed to look like) Wish there was a way to get the pistons out the bottom and put new rings in. Guess that'll happen in a few years when I pull the engine and rebuild it.

                    Comment

                    • Astrowing
                      Experienced
                      • Jul 22 2009
                      • 478

                      #11
                      Yes, the oil pump is the collection point for all the contamination in the engine and it has been grinding away for years. I would take the pump apart and rebuild it or put in a replacement pump.

                      For reassembly, I had the best success with installing the drive shaft and the pump without the pickup screen initially. Make sure you have the clip on the driveshaft adjusted so pulling the distributor up won't pull the driveshaft out of the oil pump socket. Place the pickup screen in the oil pan when ready to lift it up and reinstall and you can access those bolts with the oil pan dropped a little on the passenger side.
                      sigpic

                      CLICK HERE for Jim's web site

                      Comment

                      • redstangbob
                        Experienced
                        • Feb 18 2011
                        • 220

                        #12
                        I wouldn't put an old oil pump or pump shaft back in, they just don't cost that much and are a PITA to change. JMO Bob C

                        Comment

                        • davidmij
                          Super-Experienced
                          • Jan 17 2011
                          • 660

                          #13
                          Thx for the comments gents. I believe you've convinced me, I'm going to buy a new one. I can always keep the new one when I rebuild the engine some day. The reason for not bothering was because the engine is really pretty much shot anyway. Got like 65 to 80 compression, and blows smoke out the cap and manifold vent tube. Also glad you mentioned the clip washer on the shaft. I thought it was in the end on the pump. I can now understand that it must butt up under the distributor cap somehow. Some one else mentioned using a blob of grease to hold the shaft in the distributor, if that doesn't work I'll definitely do it the way you did Astrowing. BTW, nice web page! Not sure if I'm more envious of the beautiful car or the garage! Your pix of the generator remind of the time I replaced the brushes in my old Belvedere cuz I was too broke to replace the whole thing.

                          Comment

                          • redstangbob
                            Experienced
                            • Feb 18 2011
                            • 220

                            #14
                            David, you may have misunderstood the position of the clip on the pump drive shaft. It should be down, closer to the pump. It keeps the shaft from being pulled up when the distributor is removed for service. If the shaft is lifted out of the pump and then falls, it can go into the pan, then you have a bigger job then just a distributor repair. Good luck, Bob C

                            Comment

                            • davidmij
                              Super-Experienced
                              • Jan 17 2011
                              • 660

                              #15
                              Ah, OK then, thx Bob. Good thing you told me.

                              - dave

                              Comment

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