The longer bolts are the ones that go in the oil supply hole. They are necked down more than the other bolts. When assembled they will be quite loose in the hole. The shorter bolts are necked down slightly but they are not correct for the oiling hole and will cause a lack of oil to the rockers. It is also extremely unlikely that the head gaskets are the issue because all of the FE gaskets have an oiling slot so even if they are installed backwards they will still oil but the engine will run hot. The only way to block the oiling hole would be to have the gasket so far off that the head bolts will not even go in. This is a common and well known point about FE engines. See the picture below for what the bolts look like when properly assembled and note as I have already stated, the long bolt goes in the oiling hole. Hawkrod
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Replaced them lifters and car sounds like a deisle truck
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Well I wish it where at a shop, but its in my driveway.
I have replaced head gaskets on Chevy's and Buicks without all this headake.
The supports do not have any holes in the bottom of them, I sanded them down and nothing.
Notice the thread length on my pic. of the long bolt, it goes into the shaft support about a 1/4 inch with the washer insatlled, that is why I asked if it seaped up around the bolt.
Will post later on oil pressure findings( sure hope it is the head gaskets)and will get 2 bolts with the longer neck down area for the oil holes.
Thanks to everyone.
THANKS EVERYONE.Comment
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If the long bolts you showed in your photo are the exact takeouts, they are chamfered (reduced shank for some) to allow for the oil flow.
There are engineering changes during production.
Here are the rocker arm stands with holes-
(But they do not really exist)...
So let it be known that all FE stands, hold down bolts, shafts and rocker arms are all the same during the production run. There could be no variances at all.
I still want to know how those lifters worked.Comment
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are the rocker arm assemblies for specific sides of the motor or can they be interchanged?
I'm working on my old '66 truck (with a 352) and I'm not very confident my "helper" kept the rocker arm assemblies straight about what goes where...
thanksCaseyComment
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If the long bolts you showed in your photo are the exact takeouts, they are chamfered (reduced shank for some) to allow for the oil flow.
There are engineering changes during production.
Here are the rocker arm stands with holes-
snip to remove duplicate picture (no sense in burning bandwidth)
(But they do not really exist)...
So let it be known that all FE stands, hold down bolts, shafts and rocker arms are all the same during the production run. There could be no variances at all.
I still want to know how those lifters worked.
Please refer to the part of my post about chamfer. A chamfer is not a reduced shank. Also, the 427 still used the stepped down longer bolt. Please refer to your parts books. I know you have the parts books so you can verify the information I am giving is correct. The 427 like any other FE (except some special applications, like High Risers and SOHC's, as I noted in my previous post) use 2 of one bolt and 6 of another for the rocker shafts. In the case of a 427, whether over the counter or regular production, uses two C1AZ-6A527-A bolts and 6 C1DZ-6A527-C bolts just like any 352, 360, 390 etc... Of course earlier engines used a different number and 1958-1960 used 6 370901 S bolts and 2 370902 S bolts from the standard parts catalog. Also, despite your claim, "So let it be known that all FE stands, hold down bolts, shafts and rocker arms are all the same during the production run. There could be no variances at all." there were actually several changes over the years and they are not all the same. HawkrodComment
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The rockers are not side specific but due to the way parts wear together it is always best to try and keep them together. It is not a life threatening issue if they get swapped though so don't sweat it. HawkrodComment
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Hmmmm, The oil hole runs off of a head bolt hole, I quess it seeps up around it as well.
I live in a rural area and it is hard to just run to the auto parts.
I removed the head bolt that the oil hole runs to and still nothing when turning over engine.
Can I just remove the oil filter, spin the car over a couple of times to see if it is pumping, before I remove the oil pan?
ThanksComment
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Hmmmm, The oil hole comes of of a head bolt hole, I quess it seeps up around it as well.
I live in a rural area and it is hard to just run to the auto parts.
I removed that head bolt that the oil hole runs to and still nothing when turning over engine.
Can I just remove the oil filter, spin the car over a couple of times to see if it is pumping, before I remove the oil pan?
Thanks
Here are a couple of threads on this subject specifically related to these engines:
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Barry, if you are not 100% sure you have oil pressure then you need to check that out prior to going any further on any other part of your project. It's too critical.
Some suggestions:
1) charge up your battery
2) remove all sparkplugs
3) crank over the motor and see if the idiot light goes out.
If it does go out, continue on; that only means there's
a trivial amount of pressure (3-5 psi ?? not much)
4) if you cannot get a gauge for pressure, remove the
sending unit for the idiot light (on top of the mount for the oil filter). Put your thumb over the hole and have someone crank the motor. See what kind of pressure you sense. If you do get a gauge, you can hook it up where the idiot light sending unit came from with hardware store plumbing adapters (take the sending unit and pressure gauge with you)
5) If you are dubious abour pressure after the above, check out the shaft that goes up to the distributor and see if anything went wrong; also consider spinning it with an electric drill and see if you get pressure. (using an electric drill is a common technique among engine builders for pumping oil through a motor without spinning it). If you do get pressure when spinning it then you know the connection between the shaft and oil pump is sound, a good thing to know).
In any event, do whatever it takes to guarantee you have good oil pressure!! You had oil pressure before, right? so you should be able to again.
All this is independent of the rocker arm discussion.
John1958 Hardtop
#8452 TBird Registry
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http://www.squarebirds.org/users/johng/OCC.htmComment
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I SEE SAID THE BLIND MAN WHO SAW.
The oil pump drive shaft is going inside the distributor.
I took out the distributor and wiped it clean, put white out on the inside od the shaft and set it back in, removed it and the oil pump shaft left a nasty greasy mark about a 1/4 inch inside all the way around.
Yes I had good Oil pressure before all this.
Will check the Dummy switch as soon as the weather breaks.
I have allready removed the coil wire and pulled all the plugs.
Let me ask a silly question
If the heads where not torqued down good could this be a reason the oil would not come to the top?
My torque wrench is a cave man tool with the arrow on the scale.
I do intend on renting one and torqing it down good.Comment
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The tool you used to put the heads on will not affect the oil pressure. the reality is the FE heads get far too much oil and most experienced people actually plug the oil passage way with a restrictor to reduce the amount of oil to the rockers (it is a chronic problem with FE engines that causes oil fouling on some plugs as well as smoke etc...). Even if you did not use a gasket you would get oil out of the passageway. Check for oil pressure and then get back to us. HawkrodComment
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Knew I should not have asked that question, I thought maybe if the heads were not torqued properly the oil may drain back into the block.
It was a long shot, but the way this thing delivers oil to the rocker arm assembly, seeping around bolts and whatnot, thought I would ask.
Anyway, there is not very much pressure being exerted from the filter housing sending unit hole, I would guess about 4 - 5 lbs, easy to stop with index finger.
So I am quessing it is the oil pump, either clogged at the inlet tube or the pump has went out
If it had to happen, glad it did so sitting in the drive and not cruising down the road.
I will post after installing new high flow pump, no since in trying to clean the old one if it is clogged.
Thanks again for everyones help !Last edited by barrysmith; April 28, 2009, 03:08 PM.Comment
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Without other mods such as oil restrictors, do not install a high volume pump. High pressure is okay but high volume is a disaster waiting to happen. Unfortunately the FE engine had some design issues that actually cause oil drain back issues and a high volume pump will flood the valve covers submersing the springs in oil and sometimes even empty the oil pan out (not likely but is a possibility). Most serious FE people actually recommend a stock pump for most applications. Also note that a low volume of oil out of the pump may not actually be a bad pump but it can easily be a plugged pickup or the pressure relief on the pump stuck open. Both of these issues are common enough to actually check first although the amount of work is exactly the same (I guess I am saying you might as well toss in a pump while your there!). It could also be that your only seeing a low volume because of slow cranking speed. HawkrodComment
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OK, will install a stock pump, and as far as cleaning the old one, I stated that in the thread above, no since in the bother.
Ther car is turning over very fast, new batery.
Even if the low volume was caused by a low cranking speed the motor should have pumped enough oil to the assemblies when it was running for a minute or two before I shut it down.
Thanks for the info on the pump volume.Comment
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Hawkrod I would like to thank you for taking your time, in resolving the problem Barry currently has.It is this technical expertise from our members that we all appreciate and I know Barry does. Great stuffDano Calgary,Alberta Canada
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