Engine Parts - detail decisions

[JohnG]

Aside from finding sources of parts, which is progressing thanks to the feedback I have gotten, there are also some decisions about det ails to be made which I am looking for opinions on. These include:

a) what type of rings to use? Cast iron, chrome, chrome moly?
My car sits for the winter (in MA) and I wonder if a cast iron ring is more likely to rust.

b) stock compression ratio was 10:1. This means heat and high octane gas. Should I try to lower the compression ratio a little ( 9:1 comes to mind) by careful choice of piston?

c) my rods have sheet metal washers with folding tabs acting
as "lock washers" for the nuts. Gotta admit I have never seen anything like this. Do people just stick with them when rebuilding? I intend to replace the bolts as they are subject to fatigue.

thanks for your help!

John 58 HT with 352

[byersmtrco]

RE: Engine Parts - detail decisions

Don't use chr/moly. They sometimes don't seat.
Actually 352's were really 10.5-1. Too high for this day and age. Anything over 9.0-1 and she'll ping. Just run an "RV" grind came to make up for the lwr compression.
Fold over tabs????? Briggs & Strattons use em. If they're there, put em back, or repl em.

John

[JohnG]

RE: Engine Parts - detail decisions

I agree on the compression. This then raises the question: what year 352 would have about a 9:1 compression ratio?

I don't believe I can ask a parts guy to order by compression ratio - this is just plain off their radar screen. So if I can identify the right year, perhaps that will get the job done.

[Guest]

RE: Engine Parts - detail decisions

Use stock compression ratio pistons, remember unless you blueprint everything to specs, your actual ratio is about 9.25 to 9.5.
Your engine shop should know what type of ring to use, and I would guess he would pick chromemoly. Cast and chrome rings aren't used much anymore. Cast pistons are fine, and probably what the factory used, they can be a little noisy on cold start-ups.

A great race car trick for storing in the winter is drip auto trans fluid (dextron) in the carburetor while the car is running, when it starts smoking out the tailpipes, shut it off. The inside of the engine will stay rust free for years. ATF coats everything, and is a great lube for dis-similar metals like steel cylinders
and aluminum pistons. I know some will question this practice, but I held 3 NHRA national records and I did this all the time, so does everyone else!

Tom

[byersmtrco]

RE: Engine Parts - detail decisions

On a 352, it's the heads that puts the comp/ratio up there. My old 390 had the 352 heads on it (from early 70's) Comp was in la-la land.
Pinged !!!! Had to run octane booster.
Long and short of it, run stock 352 pistons and have the cyl head chambers opened up. They'll "CC" em to whatever cmp ratio you want.
Run 9-1 with a mild RV cam. You'll be about 315-325 HP with 400 ft lbs of torque. That oughta push a 4200 lb Bird 125-130 mph in a hurry and pin you back in the seat when you hit it. Honestly though, nuthin runs like a 390. For all around running, one of the best motors Ford ever made.

JB

[JohnG]

RE: Engine Parts - detail decisions

ignorant sort of question: what do you guys mean by an "RV" camshaft?
How does it compare in duration/overlap/lift to the stock cam??

[byersmtrco]

RE: Engine Parts - detail decisions

Moderate lift (.480 to 510) w/short duration for mid range torque.
The 352 "Interceptor" as it was called was a moderately high perf engine for it's day. Rated at 300 hp, it was aprox 60 HP higher than a standard issue 352 2 barrell. Again, it was the heads that made it the Thunderbird eng different. Huge valves, huge ports and high compression. A four barrel 390 with similar heads would be probably 360 HP.
The 60 Thunderbird I have now was my dad's originally. He drove it one way for 40 years . . . With the hammer down. When I was a teenager, I had a 440 pwr'd Dodge R/T Charger. We raced a few times. They ran side by side. Used to just frost me !!

JB

[Guest]

RE: Engine Parts - detail decisions

According to my 59 T-Bird shop manual, the compression ratio is 9.6:1 for the 352. I'd ask the room if the highest-octane pump fuel is adequate for their cars. It's probably close.

I was unable to find forged pistons for the 352. I opted for moly rings although, according to Hastings (ring mfr), cast is adequate for "normal" driving. Moly rings are porous and hold oil better, which reduces scuffing during high load conditions.

Comp Cams impressed me. They've the Squarebird vintage camshafts in stock and will grind them to your specs. They will also provide tech advice, which I recommend. I went with a mild “RV” type grind. This allowed me to use my stock rocker arms/shafts, torque converter, etc. and not compromise drivability. Note that I’ve yet to drive the car.
Hope this helps.

[Guest]

RE: Engine Parts - detail decisions

Dont forget hardened valve seals !!!

[Alexander]

RE: Engine Parts - detail decisions

I think there had been a lot of controversy on what needed to be hardened on engines not originally designed for unleaded fuel. It was thought that you needed to harden both the seats and the valves. It is now generally accepted that you only need to get hardened valves to avoid any problems.

Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top

[JohnG]

RE: Engine Parts - detail decisions

at this point, to be on the safe side, I am planning on hardened seats and stainless valves. The seats seem a clear cut choice while the valves are relatively cheap and have to be replaced anyway.

On the subject of compression ratios: what literature I have shows 1958 352's as having a 10:1 ratio while 1959 & 1960 had 9.6:1. this raises the question: did the pistons get changed, the combustion chamber, or did somebody at Ford just re-compute things?? If my goal is to end up with 9:1 then starting with 59/60 pistons gets me closer to that, if they are different.

Where do you buy an "RV" camshaft??

thanks!

John

[Alexander]

RE: Engine Parts - detail decisions

I am not 100% positive, but I think the heads were milled for a different combustion chamber size in the later years. Ford did this also for the Lincoln and Mercury. The cars actually had a lower horsepower rating but could run on alower grade of gas. This was contrary to what the rest of the auto industry was doing. At the time, Ford was the only company following its self imposed anti-racing edict.

Alexander
1959 Hardtop
1960 Golde Top

[byersmtrco]

RE: Engine Parts - detail decisions

I have my 60 shop manual open. It does "state" in here that the comp/ratio is 9.6-1. After talking to several machinists (Old time Ford guys), they've assured me the 352 4 barrel or "Interceptors" in those years were aprox 10.5-1 and the horsepower was actually under rated. A strong 352 was about 315 horsepower AND that the 390 to follow, which if you check the specs was 10-1 comp really had 345 horsepower. We think Ford purposely under rated these cars for their stand on the racing deal at that time. At any rate, here in the real world with this unleaded junk gas we're paying 3.15 a gallon for, we need hardend seat's guides and stainless (or better) valves. With the GM style "umbrella" type valve guide seals. My new 390 is just that. It shouldn't ping. It should have a broad torque range, enough to push the beast along at a good clip. We'll see. I'll have more on that when I get her out on the road, get a few hundred miles on the new rings and open her up a few times.

On the RV cam deal, Crane has a wide range of all types of cams for all car lines.

John

[Guest]

RE: Engine Parts - detail decisions

John,

The early 58's had machined heads which were later changed to a less expensive cast combustion chamber. This may explain the difference in compression ratios between the 58/59.

The "rv" cam grind means recreational vehicle and generally pertains to something other than a "normally" driven passenger car. All the major cam mfgs. seem to use this terminology.

I'm under the impression that the stock compression ratio of my 1959 FE-352 runs fine on 92 octane, however, anything less is trouble. A lower compression ratio would obviously provide added assurance that pump gas will be acceptable.

[Guest]

RE: Engine Parts - detail decisions

Crane doesn't sell a cam shaft for a pre-1962 FE.