oh boy....

[troubsullivan]

sooooo took the 60 in to replace the two cracked exhaust manifolds, took one look and knew the bolts were too rusty for me and oh boy were they! the garage had to end up shattering them with an air chisel in order to have good access to the bolts and then so many snapped while being removed that the heads had to come off and about 7 had to be drilled out. the heads survived the process without damage. i've been going by everyday to check the progress. anyway......while i have so much torn down i figure why not get the heads checked out, and valve seats and seals changed if needed, no sense having to take those heads off again ever if i can help it! what do you guys think?
the good news is that my cylinder walls look fantastic, no scoring at all. the rest of the intake valley had minimal "gunk" so overall (while not wanting to spend the money) i am at least pleased to get a good look at the inside of the engine. took some pics and will try to figure out how to post them. oh the fun.

[tbird430]

Sounds like a good ideal to me. I'd also be looking for some new stainless steel bolts to go back into that exhaust system...

[YellowRose]

oh boy....

Hi Patrick! Well, at least you are getting a good look at the engine! The stainless steel bolt is a good idea. I have replaced a lot of my bumper bolts and other parts with stainless steel hardware. Find a good one that came out of there, if you can and use it as a guide to replacing them all. As for posting pictures, send Cathie ~ Coral an email, or Private Message. She can tell you how to do it.

[troubsullivan]

good thought on the stainless steel bolts guys, i will try and source some. by the way, i took a good look at my heat riser valve? on the passenger side of the exhaust and the flap is not rusted out at all and turns freely but i seem to be missing some piece on one side of it. (the side opposite the side with what i guess is a temp sensing coil) the side i'm talking about has two little nipples on it. what am i missing? and does anyone have a pic?
regards,
patrick

[scumdog]

And smearing all threads with 'Kopper-Kote' or similar anti-sieze compound is a good thing, saves any chance of things locking up again.

[Paulie9fingers]

And smearing all threads with 'Kopper-Kote' or similar anti-sieze compound is a good thing, saves any chance of things locking up again.

This is an especially good idea when using stainless hardware. Stainless has a great quality in not rusting but it is very susceptible to galling.

[ncbird]

disimilar metals

Take caution when using Stainless with non stainless. There is a reason that the marine industry matchs metals. Stainless with non-stainless can in a sense weld themselves together because they are disimilar metals. When we do have to put them together we use a special compound on the threads to prevent galvanic action and galling. A good copper thread product may do this but make sure you use some form of anti-seize as Paulie and Scumdog suggest. If you thought drilling out a standard bolt is tough wait till you try to drill out stainless. I would seriously look at a good grade plated bolt with the proper thread product. Maybe Jed can add his experience with Stainless. Grant

[DKheld]

Needed to replace my valves, guides, seals etc due to wear but the bottom end was fine - these motors seem to be very durable on the bottom end but the unleaded gas kills the old soft valves and seats. Got lucky and found a completely rebuilt motor for about the same price as rebuilding the heads.

I would have valves, valve seats, and possibly guides done while the heads are off or the unleaded gas on the soft valves and seats will turn your car a great big mosquito repeller like mine.



Sounds like you are missing the anti-rattle spring on your exhaust valve. The anti rattle spring may be replaced with a points return spring from an old style lawnmower engine or auto? but it needs to be stainless to handle the exhaust temp.

Here's what is missing and a points spring that may work. Not sure if they would handle the exhaust temp but as cheap as the springs are for a lawnmower if it lasts a year or so just keep replacing them.


Eric
registry 5347

[ncbird]

view from the shade tree

In the day..when robin was chasing maid marian and I was young it was fairly common to do valve jobs. Engines then were ready for a rebuild with 90 thou on them.. If an engine was smoking or had a burned valve even service stations could and would do a valve job. What we did learn was that if the valves were worn and a valve job done another circumstance had a good chance of happening afterwards. Now with new valves and everything in spec the compression returned to factory spec. Oil consumption increases because the new compressions starts to push by the rings that have x miles on them. With the weight and amount of work it takes to get these heads off let alone lift that anchor of an intake I would seriously look at pulling the engine. Shoot we told Yellowrose to pull it to paint the engine compartment. If the engine is out you can drop the pan, clean the oil screen, check the bearings and for a nominal amount throw a set of rings in it, new gaskets, timing chain and be done with it. I hate having to go back in and redo something because I tried to save time. just my view from my shade tree. Grant

[Guest]

I agree with Grant ...

If you just do the heads you'll still be burning oil, it will just be coming from a different location. Do the whole thing and enjoy the piece of mind that will come with that decision. Mike

[simplyconnected]

good thought on the stainless steel bolts guys, i will try and source some. by the way, i took a good look at my heat riser valve? on the passenger side of the exhaust and the flap is not rusted out at all and turns freely but i seem to be missing some piece ...

Paddy, sorry for neglecting this thread. The 'coil' you see is a bi-metal spring, designed to relax as it heats. The opposite side should have a heavy cast iron counter weight. Think of it this way; when the engine is cold the valve closes and stays closed opposing exhaust pressure as it sends the hot exhaust across your intake manifold and over to the LH exhaust manifold and out.

As the engine heats, the bi-metal spring relaxes and allows exhaust pressure to open the valve, sending all the heat straight out.

Exhaust manifold bolts:
ARP (an excellent bolt company) sells both carbon steel AND stainless exhaust studs & bolts. I like the idea of the studs because the stud goes to the bottom of the threads, THEN you drive a nut. If you had aluminum (like Northstar) heads this would be huge. The down side to studs is, manifolds can only be removed with the head out of the car.

Grant is right about all the engine parts being co-dependant. I have done valve jobs, just to have rings quickly wear out shortly after. When this happens a few times (in a row), you get wise.

The way to do this job is to overhaul the engine properly. Strip it, boil it, use moly rings, and good, major-brand parts. Smooth cylinders cause an engine to burn oil because rings hydroplane. Cylinders need a deep 45* cross-hatch after boring.

Heads are a major engine component. Don't go cheap, here. They need hardened exhaust valve seats for unleaded gas. I use Viton seals because those old umbrella things don't work after they get hot, hard, and brittle. Let a good machinist check your valve guides. If any are sloppy, change them. Grinding valves is too inexpensive NOT to do.

Buy a new Mellings oil pump and drive shaft. I won't buy a timing chain set unless it is a true roller chain. I only use brass freeze plugs, too. You do it right, and this engine will last as long as any modern engine. - Dave

[Guest]

Heads ...

You might want to consider getting your self a set of Edelbrock 6009 aluminum cylinder heads. They come complete with 428 CJ size stainless valves, bronze guides, performance springs retainers and locks and a modern heart shaped high quench combustion chamber. You drop about 80# of wieght and pick up 50+HP. By the time you do all of machine work (installing hardened seats isn't cheap and can create new problems) and replace all of the parts in your old heads you will have as much in them as the much more efficient Edelbrocks. Mike

[troubsullivan]

thanks for all the advice guys, i have much to think about!

[simplyconnected]

Good point Mike, aluminum heads run much cooler, and allow for higher combustion ratios, elliminate run-on and hot spots. How much are a set?

I have a set of Edelbrock Performer RPM heads on my 351W and couldn't be happier. I milled them all the way down to the seats (~1/2"), which made me go to 93 octane, but the performance is amazing. I'm getting 400hp out of a 351W EFI. The engine runs cool and never pings or knocks.

Edelbrock heads are definately worth considering.

[troubsullivan]

update time! decided to just leave things as they are for now with regard to rings, not pull the engine, sooooo everything got buttoned up and what do you know, more stuff!

1. leaky accel. diaphragm on carb, (time for a rebuild kit anyway)
2. lots of pinhole leaks in the oil pan (see what happens when you clean rusty stuff? sometimes it's the rust that's holding things together. (have a new pan and gasket coming from pat wilson, i was suprised that mac's only carries pans for 65-66) just for fun i checked on pan availablility from nappa, auto zone, ect. and you would have thought i had two heads when i said it was for a 1960 thunderbird. whatever.

besides that i am happy to report that the engine is purring like a kitten, i mean NICE! i'll let ya know when i take it for it's first "post- operation" drive!