Steve's Ride

[simplyconnected]

Telling you which cam to choose is hard to do without knowing anything about the type of service you expect from this engine. There are a host of great cams avaiilable including the OEM grind. Rollers are available in hydraulic or solid.

I read that your heads are done. Did you consider using viton seals rather than umbrellas?

Are you restricting rocker shaft oil? I asked about your shafts and oil modifications but got no answer.

I cannot immagine a rebuild without changing bearings, pistons and rings. also consider degreeing your crank/cam. - Dave

[Yadkin]

I don't know the details of the build. I'm told that he's the best builder around, and judging from his waiting list I'd say that's an accurate claim, so I'm leaving the details up to the professional.

I just pulled the trigger on a hydraulic roller set from Keith Craft in Alabama. We went over what I've got, and that I'm looking at the stock 300HP and maybe a little more, the engine has a stock 10.1 to 1 compression ratio, I'll be using premium pump gas, and most importantly I want a smooth idle and good fuel economy, as I want to drive this car a lot. I left it up to him to select a grind based on that, and he told me he'd probably use a duration in the 220-230 range. I assume that is at 0.05" lift. It seems like a lot when comparing with a flat tappet cam but I guess the roller profile allows a quicker open and close.

[simplyconnected]

We usually use 1/2" lift as a standard.
Compression ratio is determined by your combustion chamber size and the pistons you choose. I like to keep mine around 9:1.
With the Keith Craft deal, it should have included a Comp Cam.
You will need pushrods, because the OEMs are too long. - Dave

[simplyconnected]

Hemmings' blog did a post on oil in old engines a few days ago. I didn't read it, but it might be informative. Check it out here.

Doug, as expected, more doom and gloom. It looks like an additive is manditory, now.

[Yadkin]

We usually use 1/2" lift as a standard.
Compression ratio is determined by your combustion chamber size and the pistons you choose. I like to keep mine around 9:1.
With the Keith Craft deal, it should have included a Comp Cam.
You will need pushrods, because the OEMs are too long. - Dave

That's the ratio according to my factory manual. The heads and pistons are original.

Comp doesn't have a hydraulic roller on its internet catalog. Keith said that he uses Comp blanks and Crane lifters. At least that's what I though he said.

I'm aware of the pushrod length issue. Since at least 6 of my old ones were bent, they are all being replaced anyway.

[simplyconnected]

Your engine was designed for leaded premium gas. Things have changed a lot since then. Piston and ring technology has improved tremandously since then.

Piston to cylinder tolerance should be VERY tight so, re-using pistons is rarely ever done. Normally, the machine shop figures how much boring would clean up the cylinders, then pistons are ordered. The cylinders are finished to the new piston size. Not the other way around. Our engine plants do that, today.

Your pistons are cast aluminum. Today, we use hypereutectic alloy pistons to transfer the heat. Engines with blowers or turbo chargers use forged aluminum pistons. Modern engines also use Molybdnum piston rings, which helps them last 250k miles. Your old rings were cast iron.

I seriously doubt that Craft has a Landis cam grinder and an induction heater. I ordered a cam through him and it came directly from Comp Cams, which makes sense.

Pay attention to the timing set you buy. All FE engines need oil modifications, as well. - Dave

[Guest]

Cam ...

I just bought a roller cam and lifters from Keith also. He had a special offer posted over on the FE forum so I grabbed one for the 445 stroker, going in my 67 4x4. He has a good rep, and builds some very nice/fast stuff. Going roller costs more initially, but with all the flat tappet cam/lifter failures it gives some peace of mind and could end up saving money in the long run. Mike

[Yadkin]

Mine came in today, shipped directly from Comp. Valve lift .529, Duration at .006 270/ 276.

Also met with the machinist. My cylinders are worn about .003-.005, so he's going with a .010 re-bore. Yes, new pistons.

He also suggested that I get an adjustable rocker arm set. Pops performance has them at $300, ductile iron, including the shafts, stands and spacers.

[simplyconnected]

Craft doesn't do enough camshaft business to make his own... I know, I was given the same exact story about 'blank' cams. That's BS, and the story changed once they found out I have experience. The only way to make a profit is to do MANY cams at once. I have experience as I worked in two Ford engine plants (Dearborn and Romeo).

They throw a "master cam" into the grinder, and the machine duplicates it as many times as needed (usually in the thousands). That's only half the story. The other half is the heat treat process, which MUST be done correctly. Again, this needs to be done on a production basis to make good cams and good profit.

Cylinders do not wear evenly. The greatest wear is always at the top, where the explosion expands the rings into the cylinder walls. Now that it is a taper, new rings would flex by expanding at the top of the stroke then compressing to a smaller size at the bottom of the cylinder. New rings won't last long. Old rings are worn, don't have the depth or as much 'spring', and they hydroplane over the oil which causes oil burning.

Aftermarket piston companies tend to make sizes that sell the most. Not many engines use new pistons that are ten thousandths 'over'. They sell MANY more pistons that are .030" over. So engine builders use what they can get. That's why your engine builder insisted on doing the first rebuild.

Learn about and make a wise choice when you buy the TYPE of pistons and rings. They are NOT created equal. I always ask the question, 'what do modern engines use?'. The cost of your rebuild is insignificant if you use sub-(by today's)standard parts that 'work'. Poor longevity is one of the qualities classic engines suffered because we simply didn't have better components back in 1960. 80k miles was considered, pretty decent. Now we get 250K miles between overhauls.

Using adjustable rocker arms is a convenience for your engine builder. Since your lifters are self-adjusting hydraulic, why not simply order pushrods for the correct size? You cannot use the original size because they are too long. Simply measure the length between the LEVEL rocker arm and the lifter 'pocket' and add 040". Oil does the adjusting, as did your original lifters.

One last point... Smooth cylinder walls causes your engine to burn oil. Cylinders need a 45 degree crosshatch in both directions that act just like highway oil grooves for your rings. Pistons need .0005" cylinder clearance. So... the cylinders need to be honed to the piston size with tight tolerance.

Engine building is much more in-depth than these few points. I hope your man does this rebuild right and I hope this isn't his first FE build. Chevy and SBF engines are WAYYYYYY different. - Dave

[Yadkin]

I've decided to do the assembly myself as these guys are very busy, me not so much and let's face it- there is nothing more fun in the car world then assembling newly machined parts into a complete working engine.

I've changed out heads, fixed and adjusted valve trains, done complete motorcycle engines, small equipment engines and transmissions but this will be my first complete V8.

I just ordered a complete rocker set PRW 3239022 from a local speed shop. This looks to be far superior than the stock set so I don't have any worry about anything breaking with the new, higher lift cam. The kit comes with new shafts, pedestals (and the ends cradle the end of the shafts), solid spacers, shims, bolts, and two adjustable rods to make assembled measurements for new rods.

I should be able to ebay my old set and make at least $100 from the deal.

[Yadkin]

...

Engine building is much more in-depth than these few points. I hope your man does this rebuild right and I hope this isn't his first FE build. Chevy and SBF engines are WAYYYYYY different. - Dave

Looking through your re-build posts, and am especially interested in the oiling modifications. I've also picked up a copy of Barry Rabotnick's book published in 2010, and of course I still have the Ford factory manual.

[simplyconnected]

there is nothing more fun in the car world then assembling newly machined parts into a complete working engine.

Looking through your re-build posts, and am especially interested in the oiling modifications...

Whoa, cowboy… I agree about the assembly part but there is a lot of preliminary work to be done first. 90% of every restoration is in preparation work because the end result depends on it. You can pay someone to do it but proper prep takes more time than anything else.

The FE engine has quirks that are much different from all other engines. A good understanding of them and careful inspection preempts every build. Each component needs special attention starting with the block. Strip everything out of it, down to a bare casting.

Pull all oil and coolant plugs then have the block chemically dipped. Do not forget the plug inside the distributor hole. After dipping, the block should look like a clean casting inside and out. Was it Magnafluxed for cracks? If there is a crack, there is no point in spending any more money on building it. After a good shot peen, all the oil passages need to be brushed clean. Two of them run the entire length of the block. Oil modifications need to be done at this point and all tapped holes should be chased. After all machining is done (boring, decking, align boring, etc), a good thorough washing needs to be done to remove all small metal chips.

The Crank, Rods, Pistons, Timing Set, and all other subassemblies need to be finished before pistons are loaded and stuffed.

Right now, my beautiful wife, Robin just got home, so I’ll continue later. - Dave

[Yadkin]

Dave, I really appreciate the help, but you've got to show a little faith in my machinist. He's got a busy little shop in Clemmons, just he and his brother, both with over 25 years experience between them, and his wife keeps things organized. Folks literally wait months to get custom work done, and routine work like mine has a wait time of two or more months, his reputation is that good. They have much more work than they can do themselves but won't hire anyone to help out because if you want it done right, do it yourself.

He carefully inspected the block before he agreed to take on the job, because he knows how difficult it is to fix someone else's prior mistakes. I'm not going to call him with questions or instructions or second guess his expertise.

When he's done I fully expect accurately machined and cleaned parts, with a light coat of oil, ready for assembly. I will definitely inspect each part and when I pick them up I'll ask him specifically about the oil galleries or any other questions that you think I should ask.

Again, I appreciate your help tremendously. I'm a technical guy by profession and this is all well within my understanding. I'm reading up on it as well.

[simplyconnected]

Forgive me if I sound critical, but building engines is an exact science IF you want longevity.

The first mistake most people make is, they ask, 'how much does a overhaul cost'. To do it right costs a lot for ANY engine. Time is money and these guys are in business for profit.

When I first heard you were using your original pistons, I cringed. Then I thought, 'here we go again'. You can cut corners on many things but not on a quality rebuild.

I was shocked and amazed to hear you went with a roller. That's a step in the right direction. If you continue using modern engine components and proven methods, your engine overhaul will produce a build that is even better than 'factory'.

I'm pleasantly surprised to hear you will do much of the work yourself because you have incentive to do a better job and the cost is right. When the cylinders are bored, weigh each piston and match weights. Then weigh the rods and match each end to be the same, then the total rod-weights to be the same. Give a loaded piston w/wrist pin and a rod (with bearings) to a crankshaft balance shop with your damper pulley and flex plate. It is amazing how far off the rotating parts are. I mean, it can be off by a LOT. Back then, Dearborn Engine Plant's balancing operations were crude at best. By chance, some engines ran good, some not so good, and some came out running sweet. We chalked it up to, 'production parts'. Today, our balance equipment is far better so modern engines run true at 6,000-rpm.

Buy name-brand components for better and more consistent quality. I can get an oil pump drive shaft for six bucks, or I can get a name-brand for fifteen. Let me say it this way, I've never had an oil pump shaft twist like a barber pole or break.

I read that your heads are done. Heads are THE most important part of any engine. What do modern cars use? Hands down; aluminum, for a host of reasons, one being the type of gasoline we burn. Edelbrock heads come with larger stainless valves, hardened seats, bronze guides, new springs & keepers, HeliCoils, viton valve seals, and are decked on all sides. To do these modifications to a CI head would cost about as much as a pair of aluminum heads. I know because I popped for my Y-Block heads. Resale on used aluminum heads is ~$1,000. Resale on CI heads is a few hundred (at the most). Then there is the all-important factor of 'heat transfer', which I won't go into.

THESE are some things your engine machine shop should have discussed with you. I have mentioned the types of pistons and rings. There are more component choices. Assembly and gasketry is exactly the same regardless of the parts you buy.

Finally, ALL of us want to see your engine done properly and run perfectly using modern gas and oil. I do not want you to lose any money. I have no experience with your engine machine shop, and I don't know his history with FE engines. Faith? I have seen them come back from VERY experienced shops with massive internal oil leaks. This is common for non-FE build shops. Read your books and magazines. They warn about it too. One 'problem' is, FEs haven't been produced for many years and experienced builders are retired. The new guys aren't familiar and assume these are like other engines. I always run my engines in a cradle before stuffing them in an engine bay. That way, if a quirk comes up, it's quick and easy to fix, right then and there. While on the stand, I check oil & vacuum pressures, and coolant flow. That's exactly how Ford does it before shipping to the assembly plants. - Dave

[Yadkin]

No problem Dave I appreciate well placed criticism.

Kevin mentioned the oiling issues to me when I talked to him earlier this week. He's well aware of the top oiler system on the FE block, and mentioned that in stock form it puts out so much oil that it can get up into the valve cover before it flows back down.

Rabotnick mentions this also and areas that can be easily modified by restricting or enhancing. On page 25 of Max-Performance Ford FE Engines he discusses restricting this flow either by tapping and drilling a set screw or by using Felpro Gasket 1020 with its restricted feed hole. I'd like your opinion on that.

I have an engine stand, load leveler and degree wheel on order. Sears had a nice brand name 1500# stand for $130 but wanted over $100 to deliver it. So I bought one from advance rated at 1250# for $99 and free delivery.

Most of the other specialty tools I'll wait until I need them, and my mechanic/ body guy has already offered to lend stuff that I'll only need for a day. I have a buddy with a '46 flat bed Chevy truck that has a 1000# electric hoist to transfer the block or assembly.