Engine Timing/Carb Fine Tuning

[Woobie]

The timing chain test had somewhere between 3 to 4 degrees slop before the distributor rotor began to move. Both directions. I also confirmed again that the HB marks and time pointer are accurate. As Piston 1 on the compression stroke, reached TDC the pointer was at "0" degrees on the pointer.

And the firing pin on the rotor pointing to #1 cylinder on the distributor cap.

[simplyconnected]

The timing chain test had somewhere between 3 to 4 degrees slop...

That means your valves and cam are retarded by 3-4 degrees and your ignition timing varies by at least that much.

You're getting oil in your intake, probably from excessive blowby from worn out rings. How much worn? A compression test will tell. That's next.

How much work can you do on your engine?
Normally, I would suggest a new timing set but I don't believe in doing the same work over and over. If you have worn rings it's time to tear it down and make it a new engine again. - Dave

[scumdog]

Thank you. I will look into that. I found a spacer in the P.O. parts box. I'm not sure why it was decided to use the other spacer. It does look to have some slight pitting and corrosion. Would a machine shop due a better job on this to ensure its smooth and evenly flat or would they charge an arm and a leg to do that?

I was talking about a plastic spacer but the same treatment would work with an aluminium one - it would just take a little longer!

As far as a machine shop goes, I suspect the cost would be more than a new spacer.

[Woobie]

Well we are getting more and more information for diagnosing the engine troubles you're experiencing, flyingthermals.

Photos of the PCV hose and where it goes would help. If you are feeling really adventurous, remove that particular valve cover where the PCV hose clamps on, photograph, and we can further eliminate or discover the cause if that is indeed oil being sucked into your intake manifold.

[flyinthermals]

I was looking at one of the pictures of the underside of my carb. The oil stain pattern shows it leaking into the underside of carb into the booster portion. Thats where the PVC hooks into. I did notice that the 4 main nuts to hold the carb down were not that tight. I not sure what the specs say, and I would not want to tighten in to the point to break the gasket but I wonder if the oil spray is due to that or wrong spacer? Just a hoping a rebuild is not needed yet.

Here is the PCV routing











Here is the PCV routing and where it hooks into on the carb.

[Woobie]

Ok. That changes things. Yours is a road draft tube converted to PCV. There is no hose plumbing to the valve covers and the fresh air enters through the oil fill cap and tube at the front of the intake manifold.

A loose carburetor can give you all kinds of vacuum leaks. With different amounts of leaking between cold and hot.

Gaskets ? Got tired of those chintzy paper things and made my own the last time I had the carb off (a stud pulled out of the aluminum manifold and wicked vacuum leaks)

https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_6?url=search-alias%3Dautomotive&field-keywords=gasket+material&sprefix=gasket%2Cautomotive%2C147&crid=12QF1HUX209YM

Maybe some of the auto parts stores have the free tool loan program for a torque wrench.

[flyinthermals]

I'm trying to stay positive here so If I'm lucky, the oil could be from a gasket leak and not worn rings as was suggested. I did not notice smoke coming from the filler tube or smoke from the tailpipe. i have to add a small amount of oil occasionally but I figured that was from the small leak from the rear main seal. Is it worth going to the other spacer and is that the proper one for this carb. I will put the fan and shroud back on unless there are other tests that require it to stay off so i can get access. I will try to do a compression test today.

[Woobie]

Here's what I think, flyinthermals.

You've had the surging idle, crazy timing and rich carb.

With the loose carburetor, cracked distributor cap, and out of adjustment carb, I'd say fix those things and make sure the choke is fully open when warmed up.

I like that metal spacer with PCV pipe. Maybe a filter of some sort on the PCV line.

That same carburetor is on my old Chrysler. It was over 3 1/2 turns out. Started over at 1 1/2 turns out with a vacuum gauge and ended up happy at just under 1 1/4 turns out.

While the new distributor cap is going in I might check each plug wire and record the continuity reading of each. Especially if one plug is fouled more.

Your timing, you know how to set so that shouldn't be an issue.

Every hose, everywhere, I'd like to suggest a clamp, clip or vacuum cap with clip.

I'd try those fixes and see how it goes. Not a whole lot to undo if it's no better.

Good Luck

[flyinthermals]

I will work towards trying to solve these gremlins. I'm learning a lot here from doing the work. More than I could expect from just reading about these issues. If I get lucky, I will be able to drive the car for the summer or longer and delay the inevitable. The P.O. paperwork shows the engine had a rebuild about 48,000 miles and 18 years ago. That does not seem like a lot of miles on the engine. Although I don't know the quality of the rebuild. Thanks for everyones input and direction. It made the journey so far a lot less stressful.

[jopizz]

According to the picture of your carburetor both the timed and full vacuum ports that go to the distributor are open. One HAS to be plugged and one connected to the distributor vacuum advance. Normally Thunderbirds use full vacuum which is the one underneath. I would use that and plug the timed one that is above the mixture screw. Also when you set your timing it needs to be done with the hose to the vacuum advance off and the port on the carb plugged.

John

[flyinthermals]

Thanks John. Thats interesting. The way it had been set up by the P.O. the lower port below the idle mixture screw was plugged and the upper port was connected to distributor pot. The carb is not installed yet. I was thinking about the spacer and what to do. Why did the P.O. use the wrong spacer? Vacuum issues? I don't know enough about this topic but looking at the oil pattern underneath the carb, does it look like the oil is getting through due to the wrong fitting spacer? If I try to use this other spacer, do I have all the parts needed?

[jopizz]

That spacer is from a 1963-1965 Thunderbird and has coolant running through it. That was not used in 1962 to my knowledge. The intake for those years is different. You should just have a plain spacer.

John

[OUR5T8BIRD]

That spacer is from a 1963-1965 Thunderbird and has coolant running through it. That was not used in 1962 to my knowledge. The intake for those years is different. You should just have a plain spacer.

John

John: If you have the " Jim Osborn " electrical assembly manual , page 59 and 61 shows the spacer for a '62 with A/C . Shows water going through the spacer . Do not see it for the '61 however .

[simplyconnected]

...The P.O. paperwork shows the engine had a rebuild about 48,000 miles and 18 years ago. That does not seem like a lot of miles on the engine. Although I don't know the quality of the rebuild...

What does the paperwork actually say? What were the costs? What materials were purchased?

A timing chain should stretch a bit but should last longer than 50,000 miles. You determined the chain has stretched three crankshaft degrees. At that point I would worry about jumping a tooth. Your amount of stretch accounts for hesitation, undulations at idle speeds and the inability to properly time the ignition system. Simply put, the chain needs to be replaced. A stretched chain also causes the valve train timing to retard which lowers vacuum.

There are other issues like oil in your intake manifold and fouled plugs.

I'm not a naysayer but I do look at the whole picture. If you add all this up, what does it say? There are more tests you can do like a 'leak-down test' and compression checks. Any new data is always good. Go ahead and perform the tests for more understanding. My purpose is to save your money by doing this work once.

When you do the compression tests, post the results for each cylinder.

BTW, I asked,'How much work can you do on your engine.' Did I miss your answer? - Dave

[flyinthermals]

Hello Dave,

Thats why I asked questions here. I am getting very experienced answers. Way more so than if I were to go to a local garage where the mechanics are far to busy to help solve my engine problems unless I leave the car with them for a Week/Month????? Even then its hard to be sure they would not just throw parts at it.

Unfortunately trying to solve car issues like this is made harder over the internet. I may miss in explaining an issue or misunderstand what I'm being asked to do. I have quite a few tools but not the space to really get into a teardown or anything large. With direction from the experienced minds here, I can do a lot of diagnosis and work myself. Hopefully fix the issues temporarily until Im in a better position to do a rebuild. I have been asking around though and no one has recommended one yet. I must hit a few cruise nights and make some contacts.

I will have to look at the paperwork again. Its been 5 years since I look at it. If I remember correctly It mostly shows costs from the garage where the engine was rebuilt or changed. Your right though. It will certainly tell me where this engine started from. Maybe not where it is now.

Hopefully I will be able to fix a few issues and make the car drivable for the summer until I'm in a better position to do a rebuild. Thanks again for all the helpful knowledge. Great site.