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  • YellowRose
    Super-Experienced


    • Jan 21 2008
    • 17188

    #91
    Disk Brake Conversion Discussion

    Howard has the same "problem" I have. He owns a rare Tbird convertible that has AC on it! Of course, mine is not a convertible, but it certainly has AC. So he will have the same problem of getting the new dual MC/Booster combo to clear the AC plenum. However, that post below about the adapter might be the saving grace on that. One of the other suppliers of disk brake conversions also supplies an adapter for that express purpose, as I recall. The price for that unit is $210 + $25 shipping, not bad compared to some others.

    Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
    The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
    Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

    https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
    Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
    https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

    Comment

    • simplyconnected
      Administrator
      • May 26 2009
      • 8778

      #92
      Originally posted by YellowRose
      ...Later on, if I want to add the disk brakes, I will have half the battle taken care of and all I will have to do is add a disk brake kit and proportioning valve. He said a non-adjustable proportioning valve will do the trick...
      Let me suggest: If you don't want to plumb twice, do the job altogether. It is not difficult and to do it twice is unnecessary. When the power booster/Master Cylinder is off, there is plenty of room to plumb the front brakes and a proportioning valve.

      I loosely perched my M/C, and mocked-up my lines to the proportioning valve. When I was satisfied with the setup, I piped the prop valve and M/C together, THEN mounted the M/C to the booster, and tightened all the connections.

      I did it that way, because trying to fit loose flare ends to solid devices can be difficult. This way, I had no cross-threaded fittings. I hand-tightened them before mounting.

      After the booster & M/C are in place, it covers that large space. If you go back and install a proportioning valve, much of your original work will be trashed, you will need to make new lines and bleed the system, again.

      I used a (combination) proprotioning valve from an old Mustang. It was free and works just fine. I'm sure you can find one from a Marquis or Crown Vic.

      A two-stage 8" booster should work just fine. Mine is a 7" two-stage, and it stops my 3,500 lb Fordor Galaxie just fine. Of course, the booster means very little without talking about the S-10 calipers and pads because it's a system.

      Can anyone tell me what years Thunderbirds had boosters inside the firewall?
      Member, Sons of the American Revolution

      CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

      "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
      --Lee Iacocca

      From: Royal Oak, Michigan

      Comment

      • Howard Prout
        Experienced
        • Feb 11 2009
        • 443

        #93
        Originally posted by Richard D. Hord
        Hey Guys,
        Here's what he had to say: 14" rims will not work with there system either. But 1969-1987 Ford 14" rims will work! You then can still use factory hub caps!
        Richard, did you mean to say that Ford 15" rims will work?
        sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

        Comment

        • Guest

          #94
          Hey Howard,
          Frank with gearhead said '58-'60 Ford Thunderbird factory 14" rims will not work with there disc brake conversion kits!!! He recommended 1969-1987 Ford 14" rims or going to 15" or 16" rims. He also stated that if you went to 16" rims you could update your rotors to 12 3/8" rotors that are standard on police Crown Victory and Crown Vicky rims would then fit. There are plenty of them that are part cars!!! Also the 16" look good on these old Birds, it fills out that large wheel wells!
          Richard D. Hord
          Last edited by Guest; November 6, 2009, 07:53 PM.

          Comment

          • Howard Prout
            Experienced
            • Feb 11 2009
            • 443

            #95
            Originally posted by simplyconnected
            Let me suggest: If you don't want to plumb twice, do the job altogether. It is not difficult and to do it twice is unnecessary. When the power booster/Master Cylinder is off, there is plenty of room to plumb the front brakes and a proportioning valve...

            After the booster & M/C are in place, it covers that large space. If you go back and install a proportioning valve, much of your original work will be trashed, you will need to make new lines and bleed the system, again...

            Can anyone tell me what years Thunderbirds had boosters inside the firewall?
            I was planning to instal the same MC/booster that Ray mentioned but include an adjustable proportioning valve. I planned to do all the piping at the same time. My reasoning is that I assume I will need different proportioning for drum/drum than disc/drum so that if I later decide to convert to front disc brakes, I have everything ready and just need to change the setting of the proportioning valve. I am also thinking about installing self-adjusters on all four wheels.

            I understand that it would be better to do the whole conversion at one time, but wouldn't what I am suggesting be a reasonable first step?

            I don't know when Ford moved the power booster from the passenger side to the engine side of the firewall but it was on the passenger side at least through the 1959 model year.

            BTW Dave, I love your pup. We have two 1-1/2 year old black Danes, not siblings but half brother and sister born four days apart.
            Last edited by Howard Prout; November 6, 2009, 08:12 PM.
            sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

            Comment

            • simplyconnected
              Administrator
              • May 26 2009
              • 8778

              #96
              Originally posted by Howard Prout
              ...I understand that it would be better to do the whole conversion at one time, but wouldn't what I am suggesting be a reasonable first step?...
              Yes, IF your adjustable proportioning valve starts at free-flow. You see, drum/drum AND disk/disk setups need NO proportioning valve. A fixed-prop valve only works with a disk/drum setup.

              I consider an adjustable valve to be more useful than a combination proportioning valve. I like the idea that YOU change the proportion to your liking.

              As far as a fault indicator, it only comes on when you actually have a problem. Believe me, when you have a brake problem you will already know something isn't right.

              Pepper is a German Shorthair Pointer (my bird dog). Her breeder is in Hastings, Michigan (home of Hastings Piston Rings). She's a great retriever, swimmer, hunter, very obedient and is a high-energy dog. She loves to retrieve so much, she sleeps with a tennis ball in her mouth.
              Member, Sons of the American Revolution

              CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

              "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
              --Lee Iacocca

              From: Royal Oak, Michigan

              Comment

              • YellowRose
                Super-Experienced


                • Jan 21 2008
                • 17188

                #97
                Disk Brake Conversion Discussion

                Hi Dave et all! Thanks for all the comments. I understand it is a much better way to go to do everything at one time. So that is what I will plan for. I will have to either buy a MC/power booster system from one of the companies that makes the adapter that moves that system off to the right an inch or so to clear the AC plenum. Or, I will have to see if they will sell me just the adapter, and buy the chromed MC/power booster system from Oldirishdave. I like the looks of that chromed job very much!

                Dave you asked when Ford started putting the power booster/mc inside the engine. It was sometime in the middle or late production run of the 1960's, as I recall. I could look it up in the OFS, I guess, but I am pretty sure I have that right. You will see pictures of the single mc on '60's and then in later runs, you will see them with the mc/power booster in the engine bay. I do not know if they were using an adapter to make the unit miss the AC plenum or had moved the hole over slightly to get the power booster away from the plenum. Someone who has an original '60 Squarebird with the factory mc/power booster unit in place in their engine bay might be able to tell us if Ford used an adapter to make it work.

                Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
                The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
                Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

                https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
                Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
                https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

                Comment

                • simplyconnected
                  Administrator
                  • May 26 2009
                  • 8778

                  #98
                  Gold Bird showed us his (registration #3158) '60 Thunderbird. These are excellent pictures showing an original power brake setup:

                  Notice how far the power booster is 'pulled out' from the firewall. I've seen pictures of the A/C box. This space clears it.

                  Let's keep things in perspective. $75 is WAY too much for a spacer. Oldirishdave has one for less than half that. I have NEVER heard of offsetting a power booster to the side, and I don't think that is necessary.

                  A two-stage booster is much smaller than this original, in diameter. It is a little longer for two reasons; it's a two-stage, and the M/C has two pistons/reservoirs. Based on these pictures, there is plenty of room for a 8" booster combo.

                  I took this picture as I pulled the Y-Block out of my Galaxie. I removed the working brake booster & M/C, so this is a perfect example of my setup. Notice the electric wiper motor. It fits INSIDE the firewall bracket for the power booster:


                  Also notice the long brake line curls on my proportional valve. I did that so I could connect the M/C lines, THEN mount the M/C to the booster. It gives me more flexibility.
                  The brake lines look like bronze. They are copper-impregnated, rustproof steel.

                  If you get passed all the sprayed-on undercoat, you can see how it works. The booster bracket is tapered to make the booster tilt up. The bracket measures, 2" at the short end and 3-3/4 at the bottom (measuring out from the firewall). This is more than enough room for your A/C box.


                  Notice too, this is a column stick shift and conventional manual steering. I pulled all that out and installed a stock column (automatic shifter) and rack and pinion steering. Then I stuffed the new 292/Cruise-O-Matic. - Dave
                  Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                  CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                  "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                  --Lee Iacocca

                  From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                  Comment

                  • Howard Prout
                    Experienced
                    • Feb 11 2009
                    • 443

                    #99
                    The unit that oldirishdave (OID) is selling and Ray linked to has a mounting bracket that looks a lot like the one in Dave's pictures. The question is whether or not it will work in our squarebirds. I've emailed OID on this matter but haven't got a response yet. From what Ray said about his conversation with OID it sounds as though he (OID) doesn't know. I'd like to know the answer before I order a unit but it may be that I just have to take the plunge and hope for the best.
                    sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

                    Comment

                    • YellowRose
                      Super-Experienced


                      • Jan 21 2008
                      • 17188

                      Disk Brake Conversion Discussion

                      Howard is right. OID said that he does not know if his adapter will allow his system to clear the AC plenum or not. It was made to get the system away from the exhaust he said. There is no Squarebird in Deming, NM, where he lives, that he can check out to see if it will work. I think that Drop-N-Stop has that adapter, and others do also because they learned that you have to move that mc/power booster to the right slightly, away from the plenum to get it to fit in there. Others on here have said the same thing when they went to this set up on a AC equipped Squarebird. Maybe an 8" unit will fit without an adapter. I don't know but maybe we will find out! It looks like the adapter that Dave uses would do the trick.

                      Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
                      The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
                      Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

                      https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
                      Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
                      https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

                      Comment

                      • byersmtrco
                        Super-Experienced
                        • Sep 28 2004
                        • 1839

                        This set up will clear the plenum on AC eqpt cars (barley)

                        Mine's non-AC, but I've seen this bracket on a 352 (390) orig AC car
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                        • simplyconnected
                          Administrator
                          • May 26 2009
                          • 8778

                          John, I hope you don't mind my piracy, but I wanted to see your brake setup a little closer:
                          Member, Sons of the American Revolution

                          CLICK HERE to see my custom hydraulic roller 390 FE build.

                          "We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?"
                          --Lee Iacocca

                          From: Royal Oak, Michigan

                          Comment

                          • Howard Prout
                            Experienced
                            • Feb 11 2009
                            • 443

                            Thanks for the great photo John, and Dave for enlarging and labeling it. Now I have a better idea of task at hand. I just measured the position of the mc and ac plenum in my car. The center of the mc is about 2.5 inches away from the edge of the ac plenum and the plenum protrudes into the engine compartment about 7 inches. I looks like the bracket on oldirishdave's unit won't work on my car - so I see the need for an offset bracket. I looked at both the dropnstop and gearheads web pages but found no mention of them. Ray, can you give more specific web directions.

                            I also found the picture useful in understanding the plumbing. As I see the way John's system is plumbed, the rear chamber of the mc cylinder feeds the from brakes directly. The rear brakes are fed from the front chamber through the proportioning valve which acts as a flow constrictor. The stop light switch can be on either brake line. I had visions of trying to plumb a cross over system and was having difficulty understanding how this would be done.
                            Last edited by Howard Prout; November 8, 2009, 07:37 AM. Reason: correction
                            sigpic "Old Betsy" - my '59 convertible J9YJ116209 Thunderbird Registry #33341

                            Comment

                            • YellowRose
                              Super-Experienced


                              • Jan 21 2008
                              • 17188

                              Disk Brake Conversion Discussion

                              This afternoon, I went to several places looking for more rims. Howard, I have found a place that says they have a lot of Granada disc brake rims available for $25 each. He said they do not crush their rims when they crush a car. Unfortunately, he was one of only two people there and that second person was helping someone else and they were closing soon. I will go back next week and see what they have. I did go to Pick-N-Pull and looked through their "classic" cars there. We could not find anything that we needed.

                              I also went to see Rose and get some pictures and measurements of my AC Plenum/MC set up. They were about to close so in the rush to get in and get out, I forgot to take a measurement between the plenum side to the left side of the MC. However, if you look at one of these pix, you well see that I barely had enough room to squeeze in a piece of plastic tubing to get it out of the way of my picture taking... That MC is nearly up against the plenum and as byersmtrco said, there is just barely room to get a dual power booster on even with that adapter. It appears to me that IS the picture of the adapter that I have seen on disk brake conversion websites or somewhere else. Perhaps on someone elses Tbird. Here are the pix and measurements I took a bit ago. While I was downsizing the pix I see that Howard also posted and was eyeballing his setup. Maybe these pix will also help. Howard, I do not remember which site (if any) that I saw that bracket. I do know that several of the suppliers also supply the bracket because they know that their unit is not going to fit in there without that stand off bracket. I see I am going to have to do a lot of dust cleaning off my engine chrome when they get done with Rose!

                              Howard, to answer your question regarding who sells the adapter to help clear the AC plenum, I see that John Byers has the SSBC system on his convertible. It also has that adapter on it to get it away from the AC unit. I could not find it listed on their website, but they must certainly have it as part of their kit.
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by YellowRose; November 7, 2009, 06:41 PM. Reason: Additional comments

                              Ray Clark - Squarebirds Administrator
                              The Terminator..... VTCI #11178 ITC #6000 Yellow Mustang Registry (YMR) #12188
                              Contact me via Private Message for my email address, or Call (Cell) 210-875-1411

                              https://www.squarebirds.org/picture_gallery/TechnicalResourceLibrary/trl.htm
                              Faye's Ovarian Cancer Memorial Website.
                              https://faye.rayclark.info/index.html

                              Comment

                              • Anders
                                Super-Experienced
                                • Jan 19 2008
                                • 2213

                                Excuse me for hi-jacking the thread for a second, but what is this soft sticky stuff that surround the AC box?
                                When I opend my box last weekend, all tubes and connections inside was "sealed" with this. And that canīt work I guess...
                                Last edited by Anders; November 7, 2009, 07:29 PM.
                                sigpic..."Lil darling Ruth":)
                                http://www.tbirdregistry.com/#33158

                                Comment

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